maxxus wiring

[greggle781]

I have a question regarding the Sundance Maxxus wiring. I ran 3- #6 wires, 2 hot and 1 neutral, and 1- # 10 wire for a ground  from the main breaker panel inside the house to the GFCI disconnect box that I mounted outside about 10 feet from the spa and about 40 feet from the house. I was going to run the 2 hots and the 1 ground to the spa from the GFCI box. The owners manual sais to bond the tub with at least a # 8 wire to a water pipe or a copper clad grounding rod no more than 5 feet from the tub. I live in New Uork on Long Island and that makes no sense to me. Why cant I just run the same 4 wires that I ran from the main panel to the GFCI to the spa?   Any input?    

[Markus]

Well being that this is a national electrical code...I would think that they are having us do this in order to insure that there is a hard ground in the proximity of the spa. If for some unlikely reason, the house ground wire was to disconnect (open), the bonding wire is in place as not to allow a floating ground condition (temporary shock hazard). They aren't designing the hot tubs to rely on the neutral wire as grounding to the spa. It's just an added saftey measure.

But then again...what do I know!

I'm off for another soakin'

[J._McD]

greggle781, If the wiring instructions in the owners manual and the bright orange label that you must cut on the control box leading to the terminal board where you connect your primary power, say 3 wire hook up why would you run 4 wires?

2 # 8 (for 50 amps), or 2 #6 (for 60 amps)  primary hots and 1 #8 ground are all you need.  Put the GFCi outside, no closer than 5 feet from the spa, but within sight of the spa, as you have, and your all set.  

The white curly Q pigtail goes to the common bus bar in the GFCI "all weather box".

Everything in the spa is grounded to 1 common ground and does NOT REQUIRE a seperate bonding wire to a ground stake, because you already have a "ground" wire going to the spa.

[Brewman]

I think you are referring to the bonding requirement of the NEC, which isn't the same thing as the ground wires your are running in your electrical circuit.
If you have any grounded metal near the spa, like a water pipe, etc, you need to run a solid uninsulated copper wire from the grounded metal to the bonding lug on your spa.  You are correct in that you will run your 2 hots and one insulated ground wire from your GFI panel to your spa.  
Check with the electrical inspector in your area.  I'm assuming you are pulling a perimt for this wiring job, and the inspector can explain the bonding requirements that apply in your area.  

I had to run the bare solid copper bonding wire from my bonding lug in the spa bay to the water spigot near the spa.  I would not have had to install a ground rod or bonded at all if there was not grounded metal near the spa.  

Best to check what's required in your area.  

[greggle781]

Curious about the # 8 ground wire. An electrician told me to use # 6 wire for the hots and the neutral and a # 10 wire for the ground. Is that suitable or do I need # 8 ground wire?

[Markus]

greggle is correct in running 4 wires from the main breaker panel to the outside GFCI box. Like he said ...2 hot (black & red), 1 white neutral (return), and 1 ground.  

The ground and the neutral both connect to the same bus-bar in the main breaker panel but these 2 wires are not the same in that ...only the neutral is allowed to carry current and the ground is not supposed carry any current during normal operation of the tub.

You will then follow your tub's wiring diagram and run the hot's, and  return (white wire) and 1 earth ground wire to the tub. The tub will operate fine without the bond wire but may not meet local codes.

Brewman is correct, in that if you have any grounded metal near the tub then you must connect a bond wire from the metal to the tub's bonding lug.

greggle, your electrician is correct. The #10 wire meets the national minimum requirement of no smaller than 10awg wire for earth ground. You can go larger but not smaller.

[J._McD]

Markus, why would you use a white neutral wire in a three wire system that calls for 2 hots and a ground?

[Markus]

I'm saying that because... greggle is saying that his wiring schematic calls for 2 hots, 1 return and 1 earth ground at the main breaker panel. I'm assuming he's following his wiring diagram for his particular tub. (Read his first post again)

I don't own his brand tub. I have a Hot Springs and that's the way mine is wired also.

He can correct me if I'm wrong... but I'm just going by what he says.

[Brewman]

Sundance uses a transformer to power all of the electrical equipment in the spa that doesn't run on 240V, like the lites, radio, whatever else, eliminating the need to run a neutral to the spa itself.  
Not sure if all Sundance spas are like this, but for sure Optima (mine) is, and a few others as well.

It is often allowed that in a 240V circuit, you can go down one size for a neutral conductor, and up to two sizes for your ground wire.  So in a 6 gauge 4 wire setup, which is common for most 240 spas, you might be allowed to run 2 #6 hots, one #8 neutral, and a #10 ground.  Check with your electrical inspector to see if this is allowed for your area in your application.  
A lot of what is allowed or not is up to the inspector's interpretation of the NEC.

[J._McD]

I'm saying that because... greggle is saying that his wiring schematic calls for 2 hots, 1 return and 1 earth ground at the main breaker panel. I'm assuming he's following his wiring diagram for his particular tub. (Read his first post again)

I don't own his brand tub. I have a Hot Springs and that's the way mine is wired also.

He can correct me if I'm wrong... but I'm just going by what he says.

greggle is not referring to his wiring schematic, but he did say "I ran 3- #6 wires, 2 hot and 1 neutral, and 1- # 10 wire for a ground ".  He has NO application for a neutral wire.  His wiring schematic calls for 2 hots and 1 ground.  I tried to clarify that in my first post.  Brewman is correct, his Optima is wired the same as the Maxxus, no neutral.  IF he uses a neutral wire, his GFCI will experience nuisance tripping.  

I realize what he says is not correct and I believe he is asking for a better understanding here.  I don't believe he knows what is correct just yet and I would only challenge him to review the owners information for his specific tub, or understand the bright orange warning label on his control box before wiring it incorrectly.

[Markus]

I understand. When he said that he ran a neutral, I just thought that he ran it for a reason and that it was wired like the Hot Springs. Apparently not!

I assuming he must know this also.

[greggle781]

I think I have a much better understanding of the wiring now. My main question was about the Bonding # 8 wire that must be used to bond and underground metal that is within 5 feet of the tub. I was under the mistaken belief that even though I have no metal anywhere near the tub that I was suppose to possibly install a copper clad grounding rod within 5 feet of the tub. I now understand that the only time you are required to bond the tub other that the 2 hots and a ground wire from the GFCI panel is when you have metal or water pipes within 5 feet of the tub. I also now understand that I don't need a # 8 grounding wire and that the # 10 wire I installed is sufficient. So to recap, I ran 3 # 6 wires ( 2 hot and 1 neutral) and 1 #10 wire (ground) from the main panel in the house to the 60 amp GFCI panel that I installed on my shed about 40 feet from the house. I am now going to run 2 # 6 wires ( both hot) and the 1 #10 ground from the 60 Amp GFCI to the hot tub. I dont need any additional bonding as I understand it (because i dont have any metal within 5 feet of the tub) and the # 10 ground is large enough. I dont need a # 8 ground. Thank you all very much for the help and please let me know if I am wrong.  

[Brewman]

Sounds like you've got it- unless the authority in your area doesn't like the #10 ground for some reason.  
They are the last (and only) word, so what they say is the way it is.