How do dealers test water?

[East_TX_Spa]

Amen!

Terminator

[J._McD]

J-McD,

I agree. and although I am enjoying th thread quite a bit, I didn't intend for it to be  a "is the dealer just tring to get us into the shop tp take our money?"

I had hoped to learn more about the equipment and how it works and differs than what consuers have available.

As i said, my wife swears one dealer is using some sort of mega test striip. Is this possible? Is this normal?

Not to be misunderstood, I did not mean to imply the dealer is in it for the money, although he does need to cover cost and even make a reasonable profit for doing so.  Frankly, the majority of dealers enjoy their customers coming in and do offer it as a free service, they really view it as a necessary nusiance, as well as, a PIA.  The fact that it makes money is of course what he is in business for.

However, it is even more amazing how many people can not seem to accomplish this simple task for themselves with the dip strips or reagents, but then it is a fact that some are color blind and justifiable do require assistance.  They simply come in looking for someone to help them understand what they do need.  As we all know, water chemistry can be very intimidating, confusing and sometimes impossible.  

Time, experience and patience are the best tools here.  The worst category of testers are the engineers, now don't go off on me just yet, they are very exacting, expecting immediate results and expect precise reactions and measurements.  In other words, they lack patience.  

BTW, you can get Aquacheck pool & spa test strips at Sam's (bottle count 25) for $12.88, or for bromine for $14.44, or you can stop in at your local dealer and pick up a bottle of 50 count for $10.95 to $12.95.  It is not like they are getting rich on you though.

[Danny]

Socal, I hear monkeys work just as well as midgets for testing purposes, without the union overhead.  Just watch out for PETA.

[Danny]

I forgot to mention, I use the test and guess method.  Test, then if any chemicals are needed guess the amount you need.  Depending on the difference in color, more or less equates to what I add.  It seems to be working so far.  No rashes, or third arms and the water is crystal clear.

[PaulMc]

  I too have a tough time distinguishing the colours on the test strips some times. Especially when it's -20. I can get things close and (knock on wood) I've been lucky at doing small changes to modify the alk and ph when the colour strips look out of whack.

 I went in to the dealer Tuesday and had a reading as I hadn't been in for a month and a half and was starting to wonder how I've been doing. He printed the test results and gave me a big A+ and circled it so I could hang it on the fridge. Best mark I ever brought home.

 He asked if I got my discount coupon for their chemical and filter sale in the mail, which I did. It will save me 15-25% for supplies so I'll buy close to a years worth I imagine. He said that'll save me some money. I mentioned I thought I might be able to get things cheaper on the net or elsewhere than his normal pricing but if I did he may not be around for me when I have questions or problems. He and his two co-workers just smiled. So did I.  Now that's a nice relationship to have. paul

[Anoroc]

Drewstar- I tested my water one day with aqua check test strips and wrote the ranges down.  Than for kicks I went to the dealer from where I purchased the spa and they tested with a large test strip inserted into a computer and gave me a printout stating I needed to increase my TA and decrease PH and add Chlorine.

I went to the second dealer who sells calderas in town and Hotspring in the town over and they told my that I needed Chlorine and that was all.  They tested with some kind of tubes and spinner thingy.

I then went to the third dealer in town that sells a generic tub called QCA and he said everything was fine.  He tested using a much larger tube and spinning thingy.

Needless to say,  it is obsiously not a perfect science so I just reverted back to my test stips.

[HotTubMan]

Drewstar- I tested my water one day with aqua check test strips and wrote the ranges down.  Than for kicks I went to the dealer from where I purchased the spa and they tested with a large test strip inserted into a computer and gave me a printout stating I needed to increase my TA and decrease PH and add Chlorine.

I went to the second dealer who sells calderas in town and Hotspring in the town over and they told my that I needed Chlorine and that was all.  They tested with some kind of tubes and spinner thingy.

I then went to the third dealer in town that sells a generic tub called QCA and he said everything was fine.  He tested using a much larger tube and spinning thingy.

Needless to say,  it is obsiously not a perfect science so I just reverted back to my test stips.

You are right, it is far from a perfect science.  

As J.McD pointed out, previous samples may taint the current sample.

Standards vary from manufacturer to manufacturer of tubs and chems. This may not be the case south of the 49th but certainly is the case in the great white north. For example, BioGuard/SpaGuard recommends:
TA:125-150
CH:100-200 (spa) 175-275 (pool depending on surface)
pH:7.4-7.6
Where Beachcomber (SaniMar) recommends:
TA:80-120
CH:150-200
pH:7.4-7.6
Mursatt recommends:
TA:125-150 (spa) 100-120 (pool)
CH:100-150 (spa) 200-275 (pool)
pH:7.4-7.8 (spa) 7.4-7.6 (pool)
Taylor and Aquacheck have there standards too.

[salesdvl]

  NEVER trust an automated testing machine's info.

Many years ago we were having an auto testing lab put in our store.  It used a test strip that went into a scanner and tied into a PC.  Anyway, when the rep was setting it up he asked me how I wanted the results to be.  He told me that he could set it so that every test came back indicating that they would need to buy whatever I wanted.  I told him to set it correctly, by the way.  But I always wondered, since he also rep'd a chemical line.....

[HotTubMan]

Many years ago we were having an auto testing lab put in our store.  It used a test strip that went into a scanner and tied into a PC.  Anyway, when the rep was setting it up he asked me how I wanted the results to be.  He told me that he could set it so that every test came back indicating that they would need to buy whatever I wanted.  I told him to set it correctly, by the way.  But I always wondered, since he also rep'd a chemical line.....

That is shady...glad you took the high road.

[obi wan]

Socal, I hear monkeys work just as well as midgets for testing purposes, without the union overhead.  Just watch out for PETA.

but you have got to be careful with either one when you dunk and wave them back and forth for the 30 seconds...... drowning is a potential risk. I have found a cost effective remedy though. your standard off the shelf gold fish bowl, turned upside down as a helmet.....wallah! all the air they need!
the only real problem is getting the goldfish out of the filters.......tends to throw off the water chemistry a bit too.....

on a more serious note, I usually use the test strips and use my taylor kit every couple weeks to be sure. test strips due tend to run together if not held perfectly flat.
after 9 months with the new tub, i fust changed from soft sok to di-chlor, as it was time for an h2o change anyway, (i got one of those 35% off coupons for xmas) . he asked me to bring in a water sample, and has one of those turkey basters hooked to a pc type thing. says my tap water is very nice, to drink. but low calc hardness, and total alk, with ph of 7.

p.s. really liking the di-chlor......

[obi wan]

That is shady...glad you took the high road.

dead give away would be the printed instructions that say add 1/4 cup ph increaser and 1/4 cup ph decreaser

[Bill_Stevenson]

This is an interesting thread.  I am an engineer, which is a curse that makes me want to be as accurate as possible.  Like most people I started with test strips, but was not completely confident of my ability to distinguish the colors.  I bought a Taylor Test Kit.  Then I went to a local, handy pool and spa supply store.  In the end I have settled on this last solution.  They use a machine that was developed by Bio Guard, a chemical company.  I have grown to trust this machine in the hands of these people.  

On my first visit, the store's owners (man and wife) explained the machine to me.  They emphasized that the machine must be very accurately calibrated.  In fact they went through the calibration procedure with me watching and explained that they did this every day and even then if they decided the results were not quite right, they would stop and recalibrate it again.  They check it throughout each day by using both test strips and a Taylor kit as backups.  In subsequent visits I have never seen them not do a backup of at least one parameter for each water sample tested.

Next, they go over the computer generated readout and explain each item recommended and line out those that they do not believe are necessary and also mark separately those that they feel are optional.  They also sell me test strips and encourage me to use them to manage the water chemistry between store visits.  With their tutelage and experience I have become more proficient with the strip.  9 times out of 10, there is nothing to be added to my water and the visits to the store are used for verification or to replenish supplies.  This method works for me and is convenient as the store is on my way every day.  At the same time, I have learned how to use and trust the strips, how to use and trust the Taylor kit (provided the reagents are fresh), and that any of these methods provides reliable results if done properly.

It is also obvious that if the machine is either not calibrated accurately or often, much less if it has been deliberately diddled to sell more chems, that the buyer should beware.  I like and trust my local resource for obvious reasons, if you don't have convenient access to a similar store you would be wise to learn to use the strips or a Taylor kit.  Doc sells the Taylor kit, BTW, and has fresh ones at all times.  

Regards,

Bill

[Vinny]

It depends on how perfect of a science you want it to be and which standards you use. The 2 that are most used are the Langier (sp?) and Hamilton. I believe the Hamilton is becoming more popular in pool and spa circles. To me I prefer the Taylor kit and do try to get most things close to what their supposed to be. How off are test strips, I've read they can be pretty far off.

I do question the correctness of a chemical company's own equipment and the person using it. We all know that the more chems that are used, the more money the manufacturers make. This has nothing to do with dealers BTW.  

In a laboratory, everything is supposed to have definite steps and get machines recalibrated every so often. How often does a dealer recalibrate their machine - every morning, once a week or never.

I think using a dealer as a backup is a good thing but IMO you need to take things into your own hands. You need to understand your water. Again how exact you make it is up to you.  As I've said before, I own a pool and thought spa water would act the same - it doesn't! As I become less of a newbie, I am creating a knowledge base in my head to troubleshoot my tub whenever it has problems.

True story, when I was shopping for a tub I went to 1 dealer that was supposed to be open. When I got there he was closed, I e-mailed him to see what was going on. He informed me that since he wasn't getting in people he decided to take the week off. What happens if this was my dealer - yes, I could go to another but if he was the only one around for 50 or 60 miles, well I'd be pissed!

[Chas]

I use a three-step method.
1. Ask how old the water is.
2. Tell them to go home and change it.
3. If #1 above does not indicate that #2 above is needed, I use my Pinpoint lab, same as the one Terminator couldn't get to work. (mine works fine).

If there is a doubt about the outcome of a test, I grab a set of test strips and double-check.

Also: if the Pinpoint lab says it needs fourteen ounces of pH decreaser, I cut it in half. Seems to work every time.