The Great Pool and Spa Show

[J._McD]

Lie.  Find Sundance dealers around the country.   Tell them you are moving to the area they serve.   Yes, go to mapquest, put in the dealer's zip and find a street.   Their practices are less than honorable and worst than car buying.   Most will come back with a quote that you can use to haggle with the local dealer.   I just saved almost $2K on a 2005 Cameo using these tactics.

I see that you are new to the board, welcome.

But, what part about your tactic or paractice is not misleading or deceptive but yet honorable?  Your first word tells the truth.  I guess for some it is OK, eh?   It seems to be the way of many.

[windsurfdog]

J McD,

Thank you for your thoughtful explanation.  I can understand and converse much better in an atmosphere that is based  on thought rather than emotion.  One gets much better results when name-calling and innuendo are left behind.

#1--I admire respect your efforts to pursue remedy for this and, like so many other practices that pervade our American society,  deep pockets and lawyers are hard to crack.  So I guess the changes you precipitated have at least made the process a little more palatable though far from the desired m.o. that would be preferable.  

#2--I see your point.  Sounds like another opportunity to turn a lemon into lemonade....but not all consumers will try to blame you for the failures of others.

#3--Well I hope this isn't you or anyone else here.  After being in his store at least 5 times and trying my best to negotiate a reasonable (not best) price for his product (all the while listening to him trash Hot Springs and competitor's advertising), he told me (and I quote, word-for-word), "What makes you think you have the right to come into my place of business and make me an offer for my product?"  I promptly wished him luck (he had only been a hot tub dealer for a couple of months) and told him I guess we couldn't do business.  Now if you have this attitude at any time with your customers, it will definitely leave a bad taste in their mouths.  My point is--I was in there multiple times trying to cut a deal to buy his product--I was not in there shopping my own deal with buyer's remorse.  I've never been back to his spa store or any of the other businesses he has in town and I will never frequent them.  Otherwise, having to deal with the buyers remorse customers would be difficult but, with the right attitude, could lead to future business with that consumer.  Outside of that, I guess you just chalk it up to the cost of doing spa business.

#4--I'm sorry, I really didn't try to "walk a mile in your moccasins"....too much emotion involved....I see your point.  I guess you'll have to hold out as long as the furniture dealers that have to deal with the roadside "North Carolina Factory Direct Furniture" sales or the carpet dealers that have to put up with the "Authentic India Rug" sales at the abandoned gas station or the local car dealers that have to suffer the best price credit union car buying service.  Somehow I just don't think this thing is going to run anyone out of business....but it certainly seems to take its toll with the local dealers.......

I have no idea how long MS has been in business.  I've scoured their website and see no indication of when they started doing business or how long they've been in business.  I see no 25th anniversary banner, either.

[windsurfdog]

Lie.  Find Sundance dealers around the country.   Tell them you are moving to the area they serve.   Yes, go to mapquest, put in the dealer's zip and find a street.   Their practices are less than honorable and worst than car buying.   Most will come back with a quote that you can use to haggle with the local dealer.   I just saved almost $2K on a 2005 Cameo using these tactics.

Sorry, masterge, lying just isn't in my negotiation philosophy or any other philosophy to which I espouse.  i will agree though that Sundance's practices are rather monopolistic for the local dealer.  I feel MUCH better having taken my business elsewhere.

[East_TX_Spa]

When I was at the Watkins factory a couple of months ago, the sales trainer was pointing out the fact that most people think salesmen lie, when, in actuality, the customers are the ones who lie to us!  It is true!  I don't lie to customers (I can't afford to or my credibility is ruined).  I catch customers lying to me on a daily basis.  Sometimes I call them on it, sometimes I just let it slide.

Terminator

[J._McD]

Gary, he is not calling someone a liar, he is suggesting that others should adopt the practice.  

Remember, if it's ok for the Bill Clinton and Monica I believe others think it's allowable, if only to get what they want.  I wonder if he has children?

Windsurf, thanks for your understanding.  Regarding the dealer, I would simply call that a cross between arrogance and anger and not a good way to make lasting impressions that will develope business.

I did that once in '92 when I was younger and just started with SD and I was responding to a customers question at a show when I said, "first, you should know that SD is not an inexpensive spa."   END of presentation, I was innocent but considered offensive and the customer reaction was immediate.

Sometimes we need to listen to what we say, or more importantly how it is heard.  I embarassed myself and have always been careful since then.  I too lost the potential for a sale.

It is what we lean in life that makes us better people.

[masterge]

Honor?  LOL.  When virtually every SPA manufacturer and their dealers take a monopoly-like approach to their sales, their are virtually no reliable consumer org reviews or comparison price info you must ask where is the honor in the SPA industry?  

Additionally, I have been to numerous boards like this.   You can tell that they do have some good real consumer info.   However, you can also tell that they are loaded with propaganda and intentional disinformation from I wonder who.   Folks that are associated with these HONORABLE dealers??? Oor is it those dishonorable dealers and manufacturers.  

I will fight fire with fire.   You be honorable and pay the extra $$$s.   I'll take the lower price and live the fact that I was less than honorable in getting a local SPA dealer to sell me a SPA at a fair market price.   SPAs are long over due for a consumer reports to do a full review.

[masterge]

WOOOOHOOO !! Post #2 Right out of the gate and calling someone a LIAR . Thanks I know who to ignore!  

Gary

You missed the point dude.  

[zzaphod42]

Lie.  Find Sundance dealers around the country.   Tell them you are moving to the area they serve.   Yes, go to mapquest, put in the dealer's zip and find a street.   Their practices are less than honorable and worst than car buying.   Most will come back with a quote that you can use to haggle with the local dealer.   I just saved almost $2K on a 2005 Cameo using these tactics.

Hmmm... With the dealer in question, how do you KNOW they would not have been willing to negotiate further? Who knows, maybe they bluffed you out of an extra $500? With any dealer who is willing to "wheel and deal," you never know where you truly stand. That goes for any product.

I don't like negotiating the price of the tubs, and in my store we quite simply don't. I find it very dishonest to present one price, just to sell the tub at a lower price to try to build imaginary value.

If you tried that tactic in my store, I would have congratulated you on the price you were quoted and wished you luck with your purchase. If you had questions regarding the tub while you were in the store, or were interested in purchasing product for the tub, I would try to be as helpful as possible. If you required any service under warranty, I would politely direct you to the dealership where you bought the tub.  

This is not a charity business, and things that cost the business money, such as warranty work, would not be spent on a customer who chose to purchase elsewhere.

I have gained countless customer from this method, and probably lost just as many because I wouldn't play their game. That's fine by me.

The thing I do dislike is a blanketing statement that calls me less than honorable. It is not only rude it is also a blatant lie, but you have decided you are confortable with being deceitful. So be it.

As for a monopolistic industry, it is very simple, what you sell you need to service, if necessary. As an HONORABLE dealer, I will not sell to somebody who will receive less than top quality service because of how far away they are. Likewise if a dealer sells a tub to someone closer to me, I will expect them to hold up their end of the bargain and take care of their customr.

[J._McD]

“Honor?  LOL. “
I will leave this point untouched anything said will only infuriate you.

Contraire to your personal opinion, you statement lacks knowledge or fact.   :-/
“When virtually every SPA manufacturer and their dealers take a monopoly-like approach to their sales,”  In spite of the Fair Trade Act put in place to protect people such as your self, you could hardly consider the spa industry or the dealers in it to be in anyway monopolistic. With over 140 manufacturers and more than 600 dealers representing only one manufacturer, you're talking about more than 30,000 dealers, how could you ever consider this a situation in which one company controls an industry or is the only provider of a product or service?

“their are virtually no reliable consumer org reviews or comparison price info you must ask where is the honor in the SPA industry?”

Everything we read, from the daily newspaper to the Inquirer is a BIASED point of view.  Your observation represents an opportunity for you to fill this void and make a difference in this world.  I would encourage you seize this opportunity and develop that organizational balance.  In the meantime, this open forum is doing a GREAT job of sharing information and it is well balanced with honesty and integrity from consumers, dealers and manufacturers.  

If you have an open mind and a quest to be informed, read this thread throughout and then tell me how monopolistic this industry is.

”Additionally, I have been to numerous boards like this.   You can tell that they do have some good real consumer info.   However, you can also tell that they are loaded with propaganda and intentional disinformation from I wonder who.   Folks that are associated with these HONORABLE dealers  Oor is it those dishonorable dealers and manufacturers.”  

“intentional disinformation”, how dare you, look in the mirror and read the first word of your post, LIE.

”I will fight fire with fire.   You be honorable and pay the extra $$$s.   I'll take the lower price and live the fact that I was less than honorable in getting a local SPA dealer to sell me a SPA at a fair market price.”

He sold you a spa for what he was willing to take for the spa, Lucky You, Lucky Him.  But, keep in mind, there is a wide mix of honest consumers and honest dealers here trying to help each other, as you can understand, occasionally a dishonest one will work their way in, but they don’t stay long, because they don’t mix well with the honest people looking to share meaningful information.


“SPAs are long over due for a consumer reports to do a full review.”

Participants in this board would all agree, even the dealers, thank you for bringing this to our attention.  Maybe you can give us some insight.  What has made you so angry and bitter calling for such an attitude or tactics?

[masterge]

Yep, I don't know if I could have squeezed another 500 or so.   But I do know that I got the price into my value window.   It is a large dealership with a large service department.   I was willing to pay a little more for that service.

I do wish that they were a one price dealership that you could trust.    They played me a little, so I played them a little.   Would rather not have had to play the game that way, but when the industry or a dealer sets up the game, both the customer and provider of goods will play (or should play) to get the best advantage.

Thanks for your input.   I wish the dealer I dealt with had a business ethos more like your's.

[masterge]

Oh I guess the Ford, GM, Toyota guys advertising $6000 rebates ,Cash for your trade etc etc.......... is OK?  

Go to GM and PUSH THE BUTTON AT THE DEALER    Marketing whats the CRIME ?!!!!! retail is FULL OF SNAKES!!!

Big Difference with the car dealers.   I can go to Edmunds, KBB, and a bunch of other places to find price comparisons and get pretty darn close to what the deal invoice should be on the car I want.    I can also go to a bunch of consumer review sites and find independent and 3rd party reviews of the same cars.     I will know what I am buying and what I should be paying.   When you can do this for SPAs, come back and see me and I will entertain you marketing justification argument.

[Soakin]

Masterge,

I am not a dealer, but I do take offense to your blanket indictments of the spa industry, especially on this website.  Most of the dealers that post on this site are offering their expertise to strangers that will likely never visit one of their stores, much less put a dollar in their pocket.  I, for one, appreciate the fact that they take the time to share their knowledge with us, and that most of them do their best to do so in an unbiased fashion.  Of course the occasional goofball shows up, putting out propaganda.  Those posters are usually identified quickly and they leave after a few posts, as I expect you will.  While I know none of the dealers who post here on a regular basis personally, I would expect to find that they are honorable, fair businesspeople.

I manage a business that requires me to deal with a lot of vendors.  I often have to negotiate, but I usually find that I am much better off dealing with someone who treats me fairly from the beginning, than a dealer that has a starting price much higher than I am willing to pay and have to "win" a negotiation with.  It seems those transactions often have something come up that makes the "bargain" cost as much as the deal that was reasonable from the beginning.  The dealers who do business in a manner that makes me feel comfortable get the lion's share of my business.

As far as your purchasing/negotiation strategy, if you can live with it, fine... but don't expect others to congratulate you on a stated strategy that starts with "lie".  You have placed a dollar value on your integrity, and it sounds pretty low to me.  If you had asked for advice prior to your purchase, I would have suggested you find another dealer, since you felt this one's pricing was unreasonable.  As with any industry, there are many strategies that a dealer can pursue.  You state that this is a large dealer with a good service department.  Since you compared his price to others out of your area, how do you know if they also provide quality service, large inventories and the like.  Their cost structure may be much different, and both prices might be "fair" if all things are considered.  Given your contempt for your dealer and the industry, why not just go down the road?

Enjoy your spa, but if you have trouble, I hope you have the pride to find a solution without the help of the people you have maligned here.

My Saturday sermon !

[Soakin]

Masterge I saved you some time,

So good WE all needed to read it, AGAIN?

I'm obviously a little cranky today, but this bashing is rubbing me the wrong way.  These complaints have some basis, but do we need to SHOUT?

Consumers already have the power.  If we don't like the way something is sold, don't buy it -- or buy from someone who treats you fairly!  The market will sort it out, and the more consumer-friendly manufacturers and dealers will thrive.   However, if you just complain about them, why would things change?

[J._McD]

Masterge,

I am not a dealer, but I do take offense to your blanket indictments of the spa industry, especially on this website.  Most of the dealers that post on this site are offering their expertise to strangers that will likely never visit one of their stores, much less put a dollar in their pocket.  I, for one, appreciate the fact that they take the time to share their knowledge with us, and that most of them do their best to do so in an unbiased fashion.  Of course the occasional goofball shows up, putting out propaganda.  Those posters are usually identified quickly and they leave after a few posts, as I expect you will.  While I know none of the dealers who post here on a regular basis personally, I would expect to find that they are honorable, fair businesspeople.

My Saturday sermon !

Soakin, We dealers thank you for your kind words and respect.  

[Mendocino101]

Yes....Thank You Soakin....I think dealers also learn from the consumers here as well....