Hotspring Envoy vs Caldera Geneva

[greenhut]

Hi Folks,

Unfortunately, I just found this forum; after making our spa purchase. I posted this to another spa forum, and thought it might be helpful to some here...


[size=18]Our Spa History[/size]
My family lives in the Atlanta area and has owned a Sundance Marin for 10 years. The dealer (while they were still a Sundance dealer) was never particularly good about service, and our Marin needed quite a bit of it. They have since moved on to another line, and Sundance has been picked up by a large outdoor store chain. For the last four months, we have been unable to get our Marin repaired (leaks and an electrical issue). We have thrown in the towel – it will be lugged off as junk when our new tub is delivered. If anyone is interested in key spares (jet pumps, heater, control board, lcd, circ pump) for a Sundance Marin, drop me a note.

After struggling with the Marin and the dealer situation, we refused to consider another Sundance product. We enjoyed ours, and from what I read, Sundance remains competitive with the other premium brands.

[size=18]For Consideration[/size]
We considered Caldera, Hot Spring, Tiger River, Marquis, D1, and Coleman. We wet tested a HS Envoy and Caldera Geneva, and dry tested a Tiger Rivers Caspian. The Geneva and Envoy were our two leading contenders after reviewing web sites, specs, forums, and dealer proximity. The Coleman, D1, and Marquis are ~45 minute drives for us. The HS and Caldera dealers are ~15 minutes away and both have been in business for a very long time (although the Caldera dealer has only carried Caldera for 3 years).

Coleman: My sense based only from web sites and forums is that Coleman is not quite in the same class as the other brands mentioned - this of course may be wrong. The feature that most interested me in the Coleman is the non-full foamed insulation approach. After experiencing numerous leaks with out Sundance, I can say that insulation approach used by Coleman and it’s associated ease of service is very interesting. BTW, we would have loved to consider Arctic, but no dealer in the state.

Dimesion1: The Lotus appears to be a beautiful, powerful, and full featured spa. We would probably not choose it though due to cost and somewhat smaller size than we want. The Chairman II would be the model we'd look at.

Marquis: Why does the dealer have to be so far away? These spas (again on paper), have some features that really spoke to me. At the top of the list is the warranty - 7 Year Leak Warranty and the entire warranty is transferable. All other brands we considered are 5 year component/leak and non-transferable. The textured acrylic base was also nice - I just don't like the idea of wet wood sitting outside on concrete.

Due to the distance from the Coleman, D1, and Marquis dealers, and the fact we found a tub we really liked, we did not go any further with these brands beyond web research. One of these tubs may have been a good choice for us, but you have to draw the line on time put into the decision somewhere...

(continued)

[greenhut]

[size=18]Wet Test - Hot Spring Envoy[/size]
Our first wet test was with the HS Envoy. Spas Atlanta has it setup in a nice area where a partition can be closed for complete privacy. Overall nice experience - we enjoyed the Envoy. Amazingly, when gathering our thoughts, we found two of the same issues that had surfaced 10 years ago when we evaluated a HS Sovereign.

We found the power lacking (and this is considered a High Power HS model). Since these are such popular tubs, I can only conclude my wife and I like stronger jets than most. My thought is that the combination of slightly lower powered pumps, and the extra work they have to do to pull all water through the filters leads to the somewhat weaker jets in HS Spas. On the other hand, I see real value in 100% filtration. It is likely to payback in reliability by never allowing unfiltered water to enter the “system”. Being able to clean the TriX filters in a dishwasher is a nice as well.

We found the diverter scheme confusing. There are two diverters, and they are not simple 180 degrees left/right travel. They move a full 360 degrees. The salesperson indicated each valve had 4 different positions (I don't know if this is correct). We could find no way to simultaneously activate the two rotary jets (which we liked) and the foot jets in front of it. The real issue though was the lack of intuitive settings of the valves to drive the various jets.

The Envoy is a relatively deep tub and sits deep. As such, it does not work well with small kids. It also offers no seats that are much out of the water. Best bet here is sitting on the knee area of the lounger which isn’t exactly comfortable.

Hotspring really needs to bring the full control panel into the tub. The main control panel is outside the tub, halfway down the front of the spa and impossible to see from in the tub unless you really hang out. You can't see the temp in the tub or adjust it (without of course reaching out).

With the main controls out of site, you are left with the in tub mini control panel. It has no display, offers few functions, and is awkward. For example, there is only one jets button which has to be pushed 6 times to cycle through all jet option. 1st push is pump 2 low, then pump 2 hi, then pump 1 hi + pump 2 hi, pump 1 hi and 2 low, then just pump 1 hi, then off. Couldn't they have added 1 more button for independent pump 1/2 control? Two of the four buttons on the in-tub control panel are for SpaAudio, which based on its ~1500 price, I imagine is a relatively rare option.

The MotoMassage was very nice. There are lots of gimmicky jets out there, but this is truly unique and effective. We found though that the MM only moved well if it had full power from the diverter.

The Bellafontana three stream fountain was good fun for the kids.

After wet testing the Envoy we walked the HS floor looking for a different tub that might address our issues. The Tiger River Caspian was the only other possibility. The sales person indicated its jets are more powerful than any HS tub (IMO due to bypass filtration). It has no diverters, and offers good out of water seating options. The central circular foot jets, accessible from any seat also looked good. It was difficult to say based only on a dry test, but we feared it might be too small a tub for us; particularly all feet overlapping in the middle. Given the price, we still feel the Caspian to be one of the best values available.

(continued)

[greenhut]

[size=18]Wet Test - Caldera Geneva[/size]
We visited Recreation Warehouse to view and wet test Caldera. Our salesman Gary was by far the most knowledgeable about his and his competitors' products. Although we were very educated on the Calderas before entering the store, we learned a lot from Gary and appreciated his general sales approach. Unfortunately, the Geneva we tested was sitting right by the entrance to the store. After overcoming our modesty, we got on with the wet test. Before even entering the tub, we were sensing that this could be "the one".

The first thing we noticed was the power of the jets. The Caldera has three diverter valves, but unlike the HS, they are 2 positional and very easy to understand. With all the jets in the tub on (diverters in the middle), the power of the jets felt similar to the Envoy with full power directed to one seat. Setting the diverters in the Geneva to concentrate power to a seat delivered anywhere from outstanding to frightening jet power (Chas E-ticket).

The depth was a much better fit for us (BTW I am 6'2" and my wife 5'7"), and there was at least one seat that got us up out of the water enough to cool down and provide good toddler space. We also found that the contour of the seats kept us in the seat better than the Envoy or our old Sundance.

There are three seats in the Geneva that offer "Best seat in the tub" experience, and they are all different. My favorite was the lounge - in addition to a great back massage, the 10 powerful foot jets were awesome. Stock, these jets are small aimable nozzles, but they can be replaced with the Europulse jets found in the wrist area of the Ecstaseat. My wife's favorite seat was the Ecstaseat - she loved the wrist jets and used them for a hand massage. I found that I was not able to get the wrist jets onto my fingers without pulling my elbows back uncomfortably. We both found the Neck Jet pillow in the Ecstaseat a disappointment. It sounded great on paper, but with the Ecstaseat blasting away, I could barely tell if the above water neck jets were even turned on via their independent control. It is nice thought that you can activate only the neck jets and not the rest of the Ecstaseat. My second favorite seat was the LumbarSage seat. It did a great job of getting to the lower back. While in the LumbarSage, you can rest your left foot on the giant whirlpool jet, and the right foot on the giant Euphoria jet. Through the diverters, it is possible to send all 2.5 horsepower to the whirlpool or Euporia jet - even splitting the 2.5 HP across both of the jets results in super powered jets. The nozzle on the Euphoria and Whirpool jets can be "pushed in".  I think this is supposed to dampen the flow. It was extremely difficult to pull the nozzle back out. Overall, we were surprised by the quality, diversity and comfort of the massages offered in the Geneva. The Geneva felt like a big upgrade over our Sundance, the Envoy did not.

The Geneva includes a single speed air jet system with 10 air ports. While I sometimes enjoyed using the air in our old Sundance, my wife hated it because it caused water to splash up in her eyes. During the wet test, I managed to keep it on for about 6 seconds before she popped the air button. It does provide a nice alternative feel vs direct jet pressure.

The Geneva includes LED lighting on three exterior sides of the tub, the interior, the hand rail, and the filter area/waterfall. BTW, the waterfall seems like a bit of a hack as it utilizes the filter basket lid. This makes replacing the lid a bit tricky as you must lineup the supply tube and fiber optic transfer tube. We preferred the HS Bellafontana water feature as its position in the tub allowed the kids to swim under the arching water like a bridge. The lighting can be programmed to come on at the same time each evening. This is a great feature for us as it allows for a visible path to the tub without turning on our bright and annoying regular outdoor lights. Since they are LEDs, I imagine the cost is not even noticeable.

The Geneva's controls far surpassed the Envoys. First, the main control panel is "in" the tub. All functions can be accessed in the tub, and the screen is easily read in the tub (you can even invert the temp display). A secondary control panel is located on the opposite side of the tub and has individual Jets 1 and 2 buttons, lights, and a mode control button for stereo use. The mechanical controls on the Geneva also surpassed the Envoy. Aside from their ease of use, the diverters moved much more smoothly and were quiet. Even the air intake switches had a smooth and solid feel.

We would have liked foot jets when sitting in the Ecstaseat - there are none. However the foot jets in the lounge are amazing; as are the Euphoria and Whirlpool as foot jets. Since I have varicose veins in my leg, the calf jets in the Ecstaseat are a "no-no". They can be avoided, but not disabled. We also would have liked a slightly higher cool off seat.

(continued)

[greenhut]

[size=18]Costs[/size]
Envoy: We were quoted $8300 + tax (including Ozone, cover-mate lifter, stairs, cover, Delivery, chemical start up). My sense is I may have been able to knock another $300 with some persistence.

Geneva: We were quoted $8200 + tax (including GFCI panel, Ozone, cover butler lifter, stairs, cover, Delivery, chemical start up). At this price they were not willing to do the 13 month no interest/same as cash promotion, although we did pay with Crdit Card for an additional 1% back. The dealer also agreed to remove our Sundance for $100 – I think the dealer probably put about $100 towards this to the install company.

[size=18]Conclusion[/size]
We bought the Geneva. Even sitting half naked in the middle of a retail store, we strongly preferred the Geneva over the Envoy. Depth, pump power, jets, and controls were all big factors in the wet test. The overall quality of the tubs felt very similar, however given the extra bells and whistles on the Geneva, and the maturity of the HS product, I expect the Geneva to have more service issues over its life. Providing that my “No but I stayed in a Holiday Inn Express last night” electrical expertise is adequate, we’ll be in the tub this evening (it is scheduled for delivery in about 1 hour  )

[size=18]Recommendations[/size]
I’m sure you have read it before, but you MUST wet test a spa before buying. It would be like purchasing a car without a test drive. On paper the Envoy and Geneva (and many other brands) are very similar. For my family, the wet test experience was anything but similar.

I hope this can help someone else in making their decision.

jeff

[Kelly]

If you're not sold on the moto-massage, check into the HS Accolade. After at WT in the Envoy & Grandee I almost went with w/ a D1 that had WT'd pretty well. The Accolade was the answer to all my misgivings. It's not a big seller (I'd guess fewer Accolade units sell than any other HS tub) but @ 6'2" was perfect for me.

[Kelly]

plus you should be able to get one under 8k

[Gomboman]

Good review Greenhut.  This reminds me of another person on this site who wrote a very thorough report.  See the link below.

I hear the Geneva is a great spa.  I wonder if you had both pumps on high speed during the Envoy wet test?  Also, the larger jets have face plates that are adjustable to add more kick (air) to the massage.  The intensity of the  precision jets can also be increased by adjusting the comfort control lever.  Do you know if the jets were adjusted for maximum intensity?

Also, it sounds like you might have had problems correctly setting the diverter valves.  The diverter valves only have two positions each, 3 o'clock and 9' o'clock.  They actually lock into those positions. I believe you said that you were using 4 positions.  If the valves are positioned somewhere in between 3 o'clock and 9 o'clock you will not have full power to the jets. I think the sales person made it more confusing than it should have been.  

Chas sells both the Envoy and the Geneva.  Maybe he can add more.  

Congratulations with the Geneva.  Tell us how it goes after the installation.

http://www.whatsthebest-hottub.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=wtb-hottub;action=display;num=1126454392;start=13

[size=18]Costs[/size]
Envoy: We were quoted $8300 + tax (including Ozone, cover-mate lifter, stairs, cover, Delivery, chemical start up). My sense is I may have been able to knock another $300 with some persistence.

Geneva: We were quoted $8200 + tax (including GFCI panel, Ozone, cover butler lifter, stairs, cover, Delivery, chemical start up). At this price they were not willing to do the 13 month no interest/same as cash promotion, although we did pay with Crdit Card for an additional 1% back. The dealer also agreed to remove our Sundance for $100 ? I think the dealer probably put about $100 towards this to the install company.

[size=18]Conclusion[/size]
We bought the Geneva. Even sitting half naked in the middle of a retail store, we strongly preferred the Geneva over the Envoy. Depth, pump power, jets, and controls were all big factors in the wet test. The overall quality of the tubs felt very similar, however given the extra bells and whistles on the Geneva, and the maturity of the HS product, I expect the Geneva to have more service issues over its life. Providing that my ?No but I stayed in a Holiday Inn Express last night? electrical expertise is adequate, we?ll be in the tub this evening (it is scheduled for delivery in about 1 hour ?)

[size=18]Recommendations[/size]
I?m sure you have read it before, but you MUST wet test a spa before buying. It would be like purchasing a car without a test drive. On paper the Envoy and Geneva (and many other brands) are very similar. For my family, the wet test experience was anything but similar.

I hope this can help someone else in making their decision.

jeff

[Texas_Tubs]

Great Post Greenhunt!  Yes, the Geneva is our #1 Seller.  It is really great to see consumers really doing their research and wet testing the spas before purchase.  The wet test is truly the only thing that will clearly help you make a wise decision on which spa is best for you!

Enjoy your Geneva!

[East_TX_Spa]

As I told you on the other board greenhut, this is a great post.  Although I am saddened that the Envoy was not for you, you went about finding the spa for YOU in the right fashion.  If more people would wet test, they would probably be happier with their purchase in the long run and it would eliminate any feelings of doubt.  I commend you for taking the time and making the effort to be an informed consumer.  Enjoy your spa!

Terminator

[Gomboman]

Terminator,

Is this your competition?  

Seriously, I wonder what would have happened if theTerminator, Chas, or Guzz you would have run the wet test? I don't think I would have been impressed either with jets floating around in the spa. In this case, the advantage went to the Caldera salesperson for knowing the product better.  

In my opinion, the person conducting the wet test is as important as the spa itself.

Great Post Greenhunt!  Yes, the Geneva is our #1 Seller.  It is really great to see consumers really doing their research and wet testing the spas before purchase.  The wet test is truly the only thing that will clearly help you make a wise decision on which spa is best for you!

Enjoy your Geneva!

[East_TX_Spa]

Terminator,

Is this your competition?  

Seriously, I wonder what would have happened if theTerminator, Chas, or Guzz you would have run the wet test? I don't think I would have been impressed either with jets floating around in the spa. In this case, the advantage went to the Caldera salesperson for knowing the product better.  

In my opinion, the person conducting the wet test is as important as the spa itself.

That's an interesting point you made about the person conducting the wet test.  It is a fine line we (salespeople) must walk between insuring that the customer is comfortable in their surroundings and making sure that we don't hover over them.

I generally give them a quick overview and then disappear for a few minutes.  I then bring them some bottled water and sit down (never stand over them) and operate the Smart Jet levers to give them the optimum massage.  I then leave them in peace and go sit at the table on the other side of the curtain.  It's amazing how loud people talk when they're in the spa and I'm sure they don't realize that the curtain doesn't do much to keep their conversations private.  When I'm hearing "ooohhhhsssss" and "aaaahhhhhssss" coming from the mood room, I know it's a done deal.  

I've dealt with both brands mentioned in this post and I still believe that the Envoy is the best spa in the world, for ME.  I'm glad greenhut found the best spa in the world for HIM and HIS FAMILY.  That's all that matters.  The Envoy is the best spa in the world for a LOT of folks.  That makes me smile!

Terminator  

[Bonibelle]

Gomboman, you are so right.  My dealer knew the Epic and answered every question without hesitation. She was a class act in that she didn't put down any other manufacturer and when asked questions comparing different brands, she showed us what Marquis had and what the competition had (she had all the information in brochures). I know that had she not done such a good job, we would have tried other  brand tubs. We were actually on our way to another spa dealer that day.  My husband put the brakes on and said he loved the tub and really was impressed with the sales person.  No need to look any more.

[Ehizzle]

Greenhut,
Great decision. I would agree that the Geneva gives a little more power than the Envoy. They are both great tubs, and seeing they are both made by Watkins, I dont think you will have too many more service issues with the Geneva. I enjoyed seeing how in depth you studied your choices. Again, great post!

[Bill_Stevenson]

Greenhut,

I used to own a Geneva, and now own an Envoy.  I prefer and still miss the Geneva and agree with your assessment that it is the better tub of the two.

Regards,

Bill

[greenhut]

Thanks for all the well wishes and kind words! We've been in the tub about twice a day since the install

A quick follow up on the questions about the diverters in the Envoy. While we found that it was not intuitive to understand which jets were active based on the setting of the diverters, we did eventually figure out how to maximize power to the various key seats. We also were aware that most jets can be individually adjusted. Our thoughts on the power of the jets were based on proper diverter/jet/air settings. It was pretty sad that the salesman claimed (after the wet test) that the diverters had 4 positions. I was skeptical about this and noted so in the write-up.

Our Caldera salesman was very knowledgeable, but not nearly as polished as it sounds Terminator is! After was had comleted the transaction, I thanked the salesman, complimented his knowledge and approach, and then suggested that it would be a really nice touch to bring folks some water during a wet test. Terminator's sitting down is also a great idea...

Since we did a pretty thorough wet test, we have had few surprises since spending the last week in the tub. Here are a few though:

• There are almost no good places to put drinks down. I wish the filter cover was flat, and potentially had drink indentations. Any suggestions for accessories for drinks?
  
• Our old Sundance had a textured shell that offered a mild amount of "grip".  Our caldera has no texture and is VERY slick. I actually slipped once and did a bizarre rotating "fall" inside the tub.
  
• There is something wrong with the filter lid waterfall. The tub we tested could shoot the waterfall nearly across the tub; our only goes about a foot. Clearly not a big deal, but important to the little ones. I think the long slit where the water comes out is just too wide.
  
• My greatest concern comes from removing the three front panels and looking inside. The first and more minor issue is that masking tape was used to wrap the electrical connection to the external lights. These are low voltage LEDs, but still, shouldn't electrical tape be used?
  
  Of greater concern is that when looking at the tub, a sizeable chunk of the vessel can be seen behind the left and center front panels (picture below). What concerns me is that the vessel is not at all insulated (nor are the front panels). It is clearly warm to the touch. The tub must be losing a significant amount of heat here. Could a Caldera dealer or another Geneva owner comment on if this is how all Genevas look or if they forgot something on my tub?
  
  

Thanks again for everyone's thoughts and advice. We are enjoying the heck out of our new tub!