The Great Debate: Master v. Sundance

[paul]

I am torn between the Master LSX or 800 (could not wet test LSX) and Sundance Optima/Cameo.  The price is about the same.  The Master felt better on my bad back that requires lots of pressure (I could only wet test the 800 so I couldn't try the extreme therapy seat, but what power!), but my local SD dealer is established and I feel like they will be here to help out, whereas w/ Master I would be on my own (brand new dealer, rented some space in a warehouse, etc, does not seem to be an ongoing business).  

I am NOT a handyman, have no patience to try to fix things myself, and leave maintenance to my girlfriend, who is no handyman herself.  I feel like, if there is a problem, the local Sundance dealer will be there to help,  If I have questions or problems with the Master and the dealer diasappears, does such an established brand have warranty service people available (I am told Sundance has one where I live), so that the dealer continued existence really doesn't matter?

[Spatech_tuo]

but my local SD dealer is established and I feel like they will be here to help out, whereas w/ Master I would be on my own (brand new dealer, rented some space in a warehouse, etc, does not seem to be an ongoing business).  

I am NOT a handyman, have no patience to try to fix things myself, and leave maintenance to my girlfriend, who is no handyman herself.  I

That says it all for me, I'd go with the Sundance. If you really didn't like the Sundance enough to pull the trigger I would considering widening your search before getting a tub where you're not comfortable the dealer will be around for you.

[paul]

I do like the Sundance, and prefer to HS, Elite, and Diamante (I did not try Coast or Cal b/c of uneven reviews).  It was comfortable, had good power (but not great, knock your socks off Master power) in its therapy seat, and seems really well built.  

Appreciate the advice.  thanks

[hottub.pool_boy]

ditto to spatech

[cappykat]

ditto...widen your search.

[stl-rex]

Personally, I couldn't stand either dealer in StL.  We have a friend with a Master and he loves it.  I saw on your other post you were at 10,500 for the Master with stereo and 9,300 for the Sundance without.  You probably have to add 800 - 1000 to the price of the Sundance for a stereo.  Doing that, they're much closer in price.

I would personally lobby to wet test the LSX some how some way.  The extreme seat is different enough from the others in the 800 that you may not like it.  You don't want to make a 10,500 mistake and have a spa with a therapy seat you don't use.

Brand new dealers have to start somewhere.  But your concern is warranted.  But what as a company has Master been doing?  Check into that.  Much to many others chagrin, they are probably here to stay.  If that dealer fails, another will replace him and should service your spa.  It's not the best ground to be on, but if it truly feels the best to you above all others, it might be a mitigating factor to consider.

[stuart]

I do like the Sundance, and prefer to HS, Elite, and Diamante (I did not try Coast or Cal b/c of uneven reviews).  It was comfortable, had good power (but not great, knock your socks off Master power) in its therapy seat, and seems really well built.  

Appreciate the advice.  thanks

I'd be interested in what you thought of the power in the new Elite....I haven't tried one this year.

Also remember that you can love the power in a wet test only to not enjoy it once you get it home because everytime you set in front of the jets you start to itch after a moment or two.

[windsurfdog]

Paul,

As an LSX owner, I am completely satisfied.  Mine has been trouble free for 14 months now (knock on acrylic) and the therapy is perfect for me.  Check out my review of the LSX in the review section here at this site.

With that said, I would agree with other posters that you should broaden your search.  With the large expense that a hot tub purchase is, take your time.  Wet test many tubs (including the LSX as stl_rex suggested) and get comfortable with your dealer as well.

Good luck!

[paul]

Thanks for all the responses.

One more question:

Sundance Optima has 2 pumps at 2.5 HP continuous/3.9 break, and a third pump for the air jets at 1.5 HP

Master advertises the 800 and LSX having two 6.0 HP pumps and a third 4.5 HP pump (for the airjets, i assume).  I also assume these are not continuous horsepower figures, and can't find those specs on the Master website.  Does anyone know the continuous HP numbers for the Master 800/LSX pumps?

Also, someone told me that the advantage of the smaller 3rd pump in the SD is that it's much quieter, whereas the advantage of the more powerful 3rd jet in the Master is stronger jets from more force of air.  Any opinions on that one?

Thanks for sharing your knowledge, wisdom and experience

[Chris_H]

Make sure you take my comments with a grain of salt because I am in no way a proponent of Master Spas.  I believe the Sundance is far and away a much better tub with a much better reputation and dealer network.

”Sundance Optima has 2 pumps at 2.5 HP continuous/3.9 break, and a third pump for the air jets at 1.5 HP”

This is partially correct, but they have two therapy pumps at 2.5HP and one air blower with 1.5HP, continuously rated.  Sundance also has a 4th pump that is not used in any of their therapy seats.  I have no idea what the HP of that pump is, but I would guess and say ½ of a HP.

”Master advertises the 800 and LSX having two 6.0 HP pumps and a third 4.5 HP pump (for the airjets, I assume).  I also assume these are not continuous horsepower figures, and can't find those specs on the Master website.  Does anyone know the continuous HP numbers for the Master 800/LSX pumps?”

Your guess would be as good as mine.  This is one reason Sundance has a better reputation.  All Master would have to do is put in their continuous rating for their pumps and what they are used for instead of making consumers guess.  I believe one of Master’s pumps is used only for circulation just like Sundance.

”Also, someone told me that the advantage of the smaller 3rd pump in the SD is that it's much quieter, whereas the advantage of the more powerful 3rd jet in the Master is stronger jets from more force of air.  Any opinions on that one?”

The Sundance is far and away quieter than the Master mainly because of the seats with jets out of the water.  This past weekend I saw the LSX1050 with water in it and I can promise you I could not hear the salesperson speak and I was less than 5 feet away from the guy.  In response to your stronger jet comment, have you sat in the Sundance's accu-sage seat?  If that isn’t powerful enough I have no idea what would be.

[vlady]

I've got a Sundance Cameo.  I've had it for 4 months now.  I love it and wouldn't change a thing.  One thing I can tell you is that it has plenty of power - so much that the jets can blow you totally out of the seats.

[Kyle]

I believe the break hp on Sundance is 4.2 not 3.9.  

Don't forget when wet testing to sit in each major seat for atleast 5-10 minutes...if you can.  What "feels" good for 1-2 minutes might not feel so good 5 minutes later if the the psi is too high.  Test soaking in a store is very different than when you have free time at home.

I feel your better off with SD as well.  They aren't misleading in the numbers they give for power ratings.  Every pump should have a "plumbed" gallon per minute rating anyway.  HP really tells you nothing, whether continuous or not.  Correct test soaking (proper time) is the best way to determine a tubs therapeutic value.

[windsurfdog]

Just a quick comment re:  Chris_H's comments regarding MS noise levels.  Should one decide to run all three pumps on high with the air controls completely open and the neck and shoulder jets completely open, there will be noise--more water noise than pump noise, though.  Backing off any of the aforementioned features reduces the noise significantly.  Leaving everything on and just turning pumps 1 and 2 to low makes the unit just as quiet if not quieter than comparable tubs, including SD.  I do like SD tubs but I really don't like the "vacuum cleaner" sound of the air pump, something Chris_H "forgot" to mention.

As for h.p. ratings, take that with a grain of salt--it's nothing but marketing.  Let your wet test tell you if a pump has proper therapy or not.  And don't forget to look for adjustability in the jets--some tubs' jets are not adjustable.......but MS jets, as well as some others,  are.  

[Chris_H]

I do like SD tubs but I really don't like the "vacuum cleaner" sound of the air pump, something Chris_H "forgot" to mention.

If you want to add something about Sundance Spas that you didn’t like go right ahead, but please don’t imply I conveniently forgot to add something because I am trying to mislead the original poster or the other consumers on this forum.  It is not true and you know it.  You could easily have made your comment without using my name.

By the way, I said that the Sundance was far and away quieter than the Master mainly because of the seats with jets out of the water.  

[Brewman]

I can only hear that vaccuum cleaner sound on our air pump when it's first fired up.  Once the pump is moving air, all I hear is the burbling of the water as the air is pumped thru it.
Our Optima jets are adjustable for the most part.  In the "throne" seat, the air blend and diverter can vary the massage.  On the other seats, the outer rings can be rotated to vary the pressure of each jet from nothing to full blast, the inner part of the jet controls the pulsation, and the air shutter varies the air into the jets.
Very adjustable.
The bullet jets, or whatever you call the ones powered by the vaccuum cleaner motor are not adjustable.  
That'd be on a 2003 Optima.