HS Filters

[Spatech_tuo]

I believe all spas have macro filters to prevent stuff like lego's getting the spa.  I wouldn't make it your primary concern.   

Very true. It's good for keeping sand and small debris out but no spa is going to suck kids toys or bathing suits   into the pumps unless a filter or intake is removed.

[Spatech_tuo]

I also noticed that one of the tri-x is missing the plastic tube inside the filter (the part that would go over the standpipe)  Big deal?  Think I should take it back to the dealer?

Anyone know what he means by this?

[Bill_Stevenson]

East Tex Spa,

You wrote:  "I stated an anecdotal position that we (East Texas Spa) have only had to replace 8 pumps in 20 years and I believe it to be in large part because of the 100% No-Bypass Filtration.  Nothing more.

...I stand behind my statement that filtering the water before it enters the pump, heater, and plumbing is better than not doing so.  Feel free to refute that statement.

... What claim are you saying I made and which argument can I not back up?"

You attribute cause and effect of an aspect of design to an experience that is anecdotal and which you cannot in any sense tie to the actual failures of yours or any other tubs.  By your own admission, you have no statistical data.  So you infer a conclusion that can not be supported.  This from your own words.

You then stand behind your opinion and ask me to repeat myself in rebuttal.  To what purpose?   Re-read my previous posts if you want to discover what is already part of the record.  

You are entitled to hold your opinion, but I think it should be fairly obvious even to you that it is based upon some pretty shaky ground.

Regards,

Bill    

[East_TX_Spa]

 

1.  I'm not inferring anything.  I made a statement about our success with the 100% No-Bypass Filtration system of our spas.  If other companies are not as successful with their designs, that is to the detriment of their customers.  I have no idea (nor ever claimed to) what the failure rate of pump/heater/controls of other brands are nor did I infer that they fail at a higher rate nor do I really care.  I concentrate on serving MY customers.

2.  I firmly believe it is better to filter out debris before it enters the internal equipment of a spa than not.  If you believe differently, then feel free to offer your reasons why it makes sense (from an engineering perspective) to allow debris into the system when it is so easy prevent it.  That is the crux of the discussion.

3.  In the interest of cutting through the word parsing and out of context replies, I'll make it as clear, simple, and straightforward as I can to eliminate any doubt regarding my position:

Terminator believes it is better to filter all debris from the spa's water before it enters the plumbing system!

Would you agree?  Yes or No (Circle One)

Terminator

[Chris_H]

I am going to make a batch of Kool-Aid when I get home tonight.  Then I am going to drink it.

I drank the Kool-Aid last night and it was good.

[jsimo7]

It has to be better to filter before entering the plumbing and heater and pumps. How much better is the question. The fact that East tx has only 8 pump failures in 20 yrs means something. Maybe his water maintance training for his customers is better than most. Maybe the water in his area is better to start with. Maybe his customers use thier spas less than others. Maybe filtering first does help. Bill don't close your mind to this HS feature. Motor oil is filtered before it goes to the engine,air bfore it goes into the furnace or A/C unit. Any debris that stays out of the machinery in any system is a avantage to that machine. I do feel that is true. How much better is the question. 20yrs 8 pumps is some of the answer

[stuart]

I respectfully have to strongly disagree.  How on earth is one standard paper cartridge going to filter as much water as 5 high density cartridges?

This is what some people seem to misunderstand about the truly advantageous design of having 100% No-Bypass Filtration.   EVERY single drop of water is filtered BEFORE it enters the plumbing, including the pump and heater.  This prevents hair, dead skin, dirt, debris, toenails, etc. from ever entering your spa's equipment.

This is the reason why our dealership, in 21 years of selling HotSpring, has had to replace ONLY 8 jet pumps during this entire time.  The fact that our spas do not get garbage sucked into the pumps greatly extends their lifetime.

Terminator

I really had to think about this for a bit after I read it...

Getting hair and small debris in the impellor can "theoretically" cause early pump failure and therefore sounds great in a sales pitch but the reality is that working on almost every brand out there for close to 20 years I see hardly any pumps fail because of this.

Most pump failures are due to improper water chemistry attacking the shaft seal and causing a leak that corrodes the shaft. Low PH and low Alkaline are the biggest culprits.

Now, having said that I also will say that I attribute a lot of water quality and bacteria issues to bypass filtration so that could add to chemistry issues but not to the point that it rapidly changes acid balance in the entire body.

All in all I have replaced more circulation pumps on spas than just about anything over the years.

I have also had customers that have used paper cartridge filters for up to 5 years. Not that I suggest this but the fact is with proper care you can get more than your monies worth out of a common filter.

I wouldn’t doubt the fact that you will see many other spas in the next 5 years with a filter much like the new HS. It’s still a bit new for me to jump on board with it.

[Bill_Stevenson]

East Tex Spa

You wrote:  "Terminator believes it is better to filter all debris from the spa's water before it enters the plumbing system!

Would you agree?  Yes or No (Circle One) "

I can't circle, but my answer is NO.  See my earlier posts for the reasons.  Pay attention to my comments on measurements of turbidity and centrifugal pump characteristics.  Also consider that there are trade-offs involving space utilization that are against the full filtration concept.

Finally, I will point out once again that even though you want to attribute your pump failure rate to full filtration, there are many other reasons why your experience is what it is that are more credible.  Reasons involving matters such as specifying high grade pumps, solid QC at the manufacturer to make sure the pumps meet the specifications, good water chemistry (which may be a tribute to your customer care), and so forth.  To attribute your experience largely to the filtration system is not supported by the available information.  And I have given you supportable information to reach the conclusion that the HS filtration system is not more effective in a measurable way as compared to their sister company, Caldera, who employ a more conventional filtration approach.

Regards,

Bill

[drewstar]

Isn't that way it's called "anecdotial observations?

"Based on my experience, 100% filtration systems seem to break down less. "

You can counter the statment with facts or opions,  but to argue his observations  is just silly, and makes you look like your trying to beat him down rather than enlighten us.

He never claimed fact, just observations.   Relax.

[ebirrane]

"Shady" That's a pretty strong word to use in this situation.
 The SHADY depth loading filter method is used in home drinking water purification systems (i. e. Brita), It's the only spa filter system approved by the NSF (National Sanitization Foundation), is the only FDA compliant filter in the industry.

  The surface of the filter captures large particles and then the "innards" capture particles too small for traditional paper filters to capure. True the surface layer will clog with use (as will your paper filter) at that time you change your filter (as you would with a paper filter).
In between changes your tub is filtering out finer particles than with a paper filter.

Is it more than you need in your spa? Perhaps. Does it filter better than paper? Definately!

Ask any pool store which is more effective DE(diatomaceous earth) which is "depth loading" or cartridge filters.

Sorry, I meant cartridge filters which filter by "depth" and advetise "equivalent surface area" instead of regular surface area is, to me, shady.

Especially when each depth doesn't have a progression of larger to smaller holes, as you described.

-Ed

[Chas]

I'm trying to remember how many pumps we have replaced. I have had four that came from spas which were set down in the ground without proper drainage and then flooded. One on a Vanguard and two on the same Sovereign. Some folks just don't learn...

There was one more out of warranty for some folks which had a storm surge flood the yard and litterally float the Prodigy ("Home Spa" at the time) around the yard. It was empty when the storm hit, and floated around the yard like a boat. If it had been full it would have needed more than just the pump and motor. This tub was the two-speed single pump model and did not have a circ pump.

But otherwise, I would say about five or six in twenty years. If it's a screaming big deal, I would be glad to do some research to try to find the exact number, but I don't think it would be more than what I said, and might very well be less.

[East_TX_Spa]

East Tex Spa

You wrote:  "Terminator believes it is better to filter all debris from the spa's water before it enters the plumbing system!
 
Would you agree?  Yes or No (Circle One) "

I can't circle, but my answer is NO.

Regards,

Bill

And there it is.  Final results:

Terminator (Salesman)- Believes it is better to filter out debris before it enters the spa pump, heater, and plumbing.

Bill Stevenson (Engineer)- Believes it is NOT better to filter out debris before it enters the spa pump, heater, and plumbing.

And that's all that I have to say about that!  

Terminator

[Chas]

Well, for what its worth: I have spas with both systems on our showroom floor, and the ones which do not filter all water tend to have more problems with the diverters getting gritty.

[Guzz]

For the record...."yes"
Result 2/1

[East_TX_Spa]

But otherwise, I would say about five or six in twenty years. If it's a screaming big deal, I would be glad to do some research to try to find the exact number, but I don't think it would be more than what I said, and might very well be less.

Uh-oh!  Wait'll Wisoki reads this.  He'll be laughing at you like he did me.

Terminator