HS Filters

[Chris_H]

I respectfully have to strongly disagree.  How on earth is one standard paper cartridge going to filter as much water as 5 high density cartridges?

This is what some people seem to misunderstand about the truly advantageous design of having 100% No-Bypass Filtration.   EVERY single drop of water is filtered BEFORE it enters the plumbing, including the pump and heater.  This prevents hair, dead skin, dirt, debris, toenails, etc. from ever entering your spa's equipment.

This is the reason why our dealership, in 21 years of selling HotSpring, has had to replace ONLY 8 jet pumps during this entire time.  The fact that our spas do not get garbage sucked into the pumps greatly extends their lifetime.

Terminator

I agree with the Terminator.  This is twice in one day.  Hell is going to freeze over soon.  

Getting rid of the debris before it hits the pumps, motors, and heater is extremely advantageous to owners during the life of the spa.  However, you probably won't see the benefits until later in ownership.

[East_TX_Spa]

I agree with the Terminator.  This is twice in one day.  Hell is going to freeze over soon.

[Fred Sanford] Elizabeth honey!  I'm coming to see ya!  It's the big one![Fred Sanford]

Terminator

[Wisoki]

OMG, now that I have wiped the tears out of my eyes from belly busting laughter, I'd like to ask Chas a question. In you years in business, how many pumps have you had to replace? I'm sure Terminator meant only 8 pump replacements DUE TO DEBRIS getting in the pumps and causing mechanical seal failure. What about the others that have start capacitor failures, or bad windings, etc.? 8 whew, I thought I was going to hurt my self!

I respectfully have to strongly disagree.  How on earth is one standard paper cartridge going to filter as much water as 5 high density cartridges?

This is what some people seem to misunderstand about the truly advantageous design of having 100% No-Bypass Filtration.   EVERY single drop of water is filtered BEFORE it enters the plumbing, including the pump and heater.  This prevents hair, dead skin, dirt, debris, toenails, etc. from ever entering your spa's equipment.

This is the reason why our dealership, in 21 years of selling HotSpring, has had to replace ONLY 8 jet pumps during this entire time.  The fact that our spas do not get garbage sucked into the pumps greatly extends their lifetime.

Terminator

[hymbaw]

Filtering by depth is, in my opinion, a pretty shady way of selling a filter.  If the surface layer is clogged the innards of the filter are just not going to have the same opportunity to filter. -

"Shady" That's a pretty strong word to use in this situation.
The SHADY depth loading filter method is used in home drinking water purification systems (i. e. Brita), It's the only spa filter system approved by the NSF (National Sanitization Foundation), is the only FDA compliant filter in the industry.

 The surface of the filter captures large particles and then the "innards" capture particles too small for traditional paper filters to capure. True the surface layer will clog with use (as will your paper filter) at that time you change your filter (as you would with a paper filter).
In between changes your tub is filtering out finer particles than with a paper filter.

Is it more than you need in your spa? Perhaps. Does it filter better than paper? Definately!

Ask any pool store which is more effective DE(diatomaceous earth) which is "depth loading" or cartridge filters.

[East_TX_Spa]

OMG, now that I have wiped the tears out of my eyes from belly busting laughter, I'd like to ask Chas a question. In you years in business, how many pumps have you had to replace? I'm sure Terminator meant only 8 pump replacements DUE TO DEBRIS getting in the pumps and causing mechanical seal failure. What about the others that have start capacitor failures, or bad windings, etc.? 8 whew, I thought I was going to hurt my self!

 Don't worry Amigo, laughter is the best medicine.  And you read it right..........E I G H T Wavemaster Jet Pumps replaced in 20 years.  FOUR under warranty, the other FOUR from seal leaks, etc.  I double checked with the boss and service manager just to make sure.

We do have to replace a few circ pumps from time to time (usually around the 10 year mark).  The $150 circ pump is a helluva lot cheaper than a $600 jet pump like some companies are replacing every few years.

Terminator

[Wisoki]

Well, dang, who manufacturs your motors? Franklin (here in Indiana!) Emerson (or is it Imerson) A.O. Smith? We should ALL be using such reliable pump motors!

   Don't worry Amigo, laughter is the best medicine.  And you read it right..........E I G H T Wavemaster Jet Pumps replaced in 20 years.  FOUR under warranty, the other FOUR from seal leaks, etc.  I double checked with the boss and service manager just to make sure.

We do have to replace a few circ pumps from time to time (usually around the 10 year mark).  The $150 circ pump is a helluva lot cheaper than a $600 jet pump like some companies are replacing every few years.

Terminator

[shabba34]

The five filters in my Envoy are not any more effective than the single filter was in my Caldera Geneva.  Much ado about nothing.  Really.  I am also not convinced that filtering 100% of the water 100% of the time is either necessary or worth the cost in space required to do it.  

Different way to skin a cat, yes.  Real benefits, no.

Regards,

Bill

Bill,
Just curious as to why you didn't purchase another Caldera Geneva after your move?  It seems to me that you enjoyed every feature of that spa as opposed to your HS Envoy...In your words: Filters better, more vigorous massage therapy, more comfortable, same quality as the HS (Which is built in a totally seperate facility using totally seperate equipment and building materials with the exception of a few items) etc...?  

[East_TX_Spa]

We should ALL be using such reliable pump motors!

Nope, you should all be doing 100% No-Bypass Filtration.  Do it for the children.

Terminator

[J._McD]

I respectfully have to strongly disagree.  How on earth is one standard paper cartridge going to filter as much water as 5 high density cartridges?

This is what some people seem to misunderstand about the truly advantageous design of having 100% No-Bypass Filtration.   EVERY single drop of water is filtered BEFORE it enters the plumbing, including the pump and heater.  This prevents hair, dead skin, dirt, debris, toenails, etc. from ever entering your spa's equipment.

This is the reason why our dealership, in 21 years of selling HotSpring, has had to replace ONLY 8 jet pumps during this entire time.  The fact that our spas do not get garbage sucked into the pumps greatly extends their lifetime.

Terminator

I too must respectfully disagree.  ALL spas not only filter the water effectively, but all filters are designed and intended to do the same to similar job of filtering matter out of the water to keep the water clean.  Some cartridges will filter from 20 micron of matter from the water down to 1 micron of matter.  This relates to the ability of the filter to capture “dirt” in the smallest size of matter.  As a filter collects matter, or becomes burdened with dirt, it actually becomes more effective as “smaller matter” can not pass through the filter media eventually to the point when the filter needs to be cleaned.

The 5 “high density cartridges” in the Hot Springs do not filter all the time in spite of the claim of 100% filtration.  The high performance pumps have 2 filters each, but are only on during spa use or clean up cycles.  Only the circulation pump filters all the time at the rate of 5-6 gpm.  A "more correct" statement would be when all of the pumps are on, 100% of the water is being filtered.

“

How on earth is one standard paper cartridge going to filter as much water as 5 high density cartridges?”

 This is basic math and can be easily calculated.  It is not the number of filters present, but the gallons per minute that pass through them.  Of course, we can calculate the GPM once again and easily see where not only does this in fact occur, but it exceeds the gpm capacity of the HS on most all other spas making this a debatable subject.  I beleive all spas filter well.

Only 8 pumps replaced in 21 years?  This does appear to possibly be an exaggeration to make a point.  But then, if you have been keeping count over 21 years, and have only replaced 8 pumps, well I suppose you would know, but take the filters out and they all pull that stuff through the plumbing.  

I thought there was a time that HS was changing out a lot of circ pumps or was it water flow problems with their heaters and thus aa contributing reason for the tri-x filters for “higher” water flow through the filters.  Admittedly, I am not a passionate expert on HS and I never drank their kool aide, so I certainly could be wrong.

[East_TX_Spa]

 A "more correct" statement would be when all of the pumps are on, 100% of the water is being filtered.

Somewhat correct, but I believe you may be misinterpreting the context of the statement.  100% No-Bypass Filtration means that 100% of the water is filtered BEFORE it enters the plumbing.  It is not intended to infer that all five filters are "filtering" 24/7.  When the jet pumps are off, water is continuously filtered through the circ pump filter.  When the jet pumps are running, water passes through all 5 filters.

Only 8 pumps replaced in 21 years?  This does appear to possibly be an exaggeration to make a point.  But then, if you have been keeping count over 21 years, and have only replaced 8 pumps, well I suppose you would know, but take the filters out and they all pull that stuff through the plumbing.

It pains me somewhat that you and Wisoki seem to think I'm blowing smoke.  I believe that I've represented myself on this board as straightforward as anyone possibly could.  I don't hide anything about me or the company I work for.  I consider myself to be a straight shooter.

HotSpring IS the world's #1 selling brand of portable spa.  There are reasons why they are.  The longevity and quality of the product is a primary reason.  If other spa companies are not giving their customers the same quality experience of spa ownership, that is to the customer's detriment, and is a shame.

Terminator

[shabba34]

 I am not a passionate expert on HS and I never drank their kool aide, so I certainly could be wrong.

I never drank there kool aide either, but the did fix me up a cup of herbal tea made with mushrooms from the local cow pasture... I don't know what happened for the next 8 hours...I must have dozed off...but when I awoke, it was HS or die...Kinda like Ben Stiller in Zoolander: "Must kill the Malaysian Prime Minister" with that song "Relax" playing in the backround.  

[ebirrane]

I too must respectfully disagree.

Or, maybe, just disagree...

Some cartridges will filter from 20 micron of matter from the water down to 1 micron of matter.  

That is a fact. Different companies have different approaches to what is a subjective matter: To what degree do you filter to best balance filter cleanings and water clarity. No one, not even the HS "kool aide" you refer to states otherwise.

The 5 “high density cartridges” in the Hot Springs do not filter all the time in spite of the claim of 100% filtration.

As passive filters, they do, and you are wrong. No water gets into a pump without first going through a filter. That is what no-bypass means. I think you missed this point, or you chose to invent a different an dinaccurate definition of no bypass.

Now, completely separate from no bypass, and what you are probably referring to is how often the the water in the tub is pulled through the filter, as opposed to just hanging out in some corner of the tub. And in that case, you are correct: jets will provide more agitation to keep "dead spots" from happening.

However, the HS circ. pump solution is clearly adequate, quiet, and reliable.  Ask any of us happy kool aide drinkers.

Only 8 pumps replaced in 21 years?  This does appear to possibly be an exaggeration to make a point.

So glad you "respectfully" disagree with someone by calling them a liar.

Admittedly, I am not a passionate expert on HS and I never drank their kool aide, so I certainly could be wrong.

I think you are wrong, and the whole mentality of your post speaks more to someone with a bone to pick with HS than someone just looking for information. Your not a passionate expert on HS, but you certainly seem passionate about it.

respectfully,
-Ed

[Bill_Stevenson]

It is OK with me if some of you would like to respectfully disagree about the efficacy of the HS filtering system. To clarify any confusion, the HS system has no bypass and there is no way for any water to be inducted into the pumps before passing through the filtration system.  That is a fact, it is not an opinion, and it is not debatable.  100% of the water is filtered every pass, period.  

To clarify my comment, I owned a Caldera that uses the more conventional approach of partial filtration, with filter bypass when the pumps are at high speed.  Routinely testing for turbidity, a measure of the accumulation of particulate solids, once a week, in both tubs and having the records to back this up, I can report with a high level of certainty that there is no apparent benefit to the HS full filtration method.  In other words, turbidity, which increases over time between water changes, does not seem to be any different between the two tubs.   My conclusion is that the benefits of  the Tri-X filtration system are nebulous.  If pump failure rates due to clogging are significantly different for HS than other manufacturers using pumps of equal, high quality, I would be glad to learn the details.  

As to Pkud's question, I bought the Envoy because a replacement Geneva, ordered 6 months in advance, could not be delivered when it was needed near the completion of construction of my new home.  The Envoy was delivered on schedule at very short notice.  Although I miss the Geneva, and prefer it, I like my Envoy very much and am grateful to have the privilege of owning it.  I get piqued, though, when things get hyped for erroneous reasons.  HS makes a great product, but it is not the only game in town.  Caldera, Jacuzzi Premium, Sundown, Marquis, Master, Dimension One. to name a few, are equally excellent and have their own features and benefits.  This filtration difference is a red herring.    

Regards,

Bill    

[Chris_H]

I am going to make a batch of Kool-Aid when I get home tonight.  Then I am going to drink it.

[shabba34]

As to Pkud's question, I bought the Envoy because a replacement Geneva, ordered 6 months in advance, could not be delivered when it was needed near the completion of construction of my new home.  The Envoy was delivered on schedule at very short notice.     

Thanks for the reply Bill