Enzymes and F O A M!!!

[Vinny]

Do all enzyme products foam?

I started using Spa Perfect due to a brown water line and it does a great job at eliminating it but seems to constantly foam. No matter when I put it in, 12 hours after shocking or mid week. It never goes away, even after a few days of non use, the tub has a white foam on it when the jets kick in with air.

At one point I had about 5" of foam on my tub and I will attribute it to excess detergent in the suit reacting to the enzyme. I've tried e-mailing questions to the makers, Natural Chemistry, but they seem to have stock answers and won't answer any specific foam questions - they basically say foam is going to happen and it's working since there's no brown ring!!

It even seems to have changed the consistency of my water. When I reached the 1 month mark, I changed the water - the new water changed characteristics - it went from bubbles with air on and Alka-seltzer type water throughout the tub. It goes away in 5 min or so and the tub is clear without the air on.

Is this normal? Are there other products out there to eliminate the tub ring?

Any help and thoughts are appreciated!

Thanks!

Vinny

[johnvb]

Foam is absolutely the only thing I haven't been able to beat, in the 2+ months of tub ownership.

I use a CD ozonator, along with a reduced amount of bromine level (tabs). Plus a weekly dose of shock, scale and stain remover, also natural enzymes.

We use the same bathsuits, no laundry detergent added, etc.

I had the foam before I started using the enzyme product; actually the product (Spa Perfect, from Leslies, same as yours? ) claims to have anti-foam agents included. Maybe it is the scale and stain control? Next time I change the water, I may omit the S&S control at first to see...

[scott10367]

The Bio-Guard product called Natural Spa Enzyme has always worked great for me.  No foaming with it since I started using a couple of years ago.  Try to prevent foam by using one suit that is not washed with soap and by showering before use.  All the 'stuff' we put on to look good, i.e. deodorant, hair gel, etc. will also cause foam.  Good luck!

[Soakin]

Vinny,

I haven't been around for awhile, so if you posted what your water maintenance routine is I missed it.  A few questions for you:

1.  What do you think is causing the brown ring?
2.  Do you have any unresolved water balance issues (pH, TA, Hardness)?
3.  Did you use a metal remover at fill-up?
4.  Are you using a clarifier?
5.  Have you tried a dirty duck/scumball/etc?

[Vinny]

John,

I'm also at the 2+ month mark and foam is one of the things, the other is green tinted water. My plan for the tinted water is to put a metal sequestering agent in the water when I do the next water change; as far as the foam - it's just annoying.

I did buy the 1st bottle of Spa Perfect at Leslies but I got a GREAT "deal" of the bottles I'm using now on E-Bay: 2 - 3 Liter jugs for $12.95 each + shipping. So far, it seems like the same product but after being warned by Stuart on shelf life and how enzymes that went bad can mess up the water, I don't think I would buy from E-Bay again. Before buying the 2nd batch of enzymes, I was going to try without them thinking the old water is full on newbie gunk but my kids went into the brand new water and I got the tub ring again - so I'm using enzymes!

My e-mails to Natural Chemistry gave stock answers like I said - don't add chlorine right after you get out; shocking kills the enzymes; the foam means it's working; ...  I was really hoping I would get more info than the sales blurbs.

Do you have alka-seltzer like air bubbles in your water too?

Maybe it'll get figured out!

Vinny

[Vinny]

Vinny,

I haven't been around for awhile, so if you posted what your water maintenance routine is I missed it.  A few questions for you:

1.  What do you think is causing the brown ring?
2.  Do you have any unresolved water balance issues (pH, TA, Hardness)?
3.  Did you use a metal remover at fill-up?
4.  Are you using a clarifier?
5.  Have you tried a dirty duck/scumball/etc?

 

1- This is from body oils and gunk.
2- No, PH - 7.4, TA - don't really measure due to PH OK, Cal -200.
3- No, I have green tinted water, will be using it at next fill up though!
4- Used clarifier once and cleaned filter in bleach solution and rinsed well.
5-No, I was wondering if they worked well!

I use dichlor and dose when I get out. Right now I use a shock product call Spa Essentials Enhanced Shock which has dichlor and MPS (maybe it has clarifier in it too?) and shock once a week.



OK, I went to the shock bottle and it does contain clarifiers and "water enhancing buffers" so maybe this is the culprit in the foaming?

[tonyp]

I seldom get any foam and even then very little except after using filter cleaner because I can never seem to rinse them enough.  (that's why I usually use the dishwasher).  

My water is also constantly clear with no rings at all.  Yet my numbers are usually way off.  My ph is always creeping up to 8.0.  That's because my alkalininty is 330 and my hardness is 330.  Based on the numbers my water should be horrible.

I use Nature 2 and ozone.  I shock with 3 tbs of dichlor each week and add 2 tbs of MPS before each use.  I also add 2 oz. of scale and stain control the day after I shock.

[Soakin]

If the problem is oils and gunk, I use a clarifier to get them to clump together so the filter can take them out.  I have had good luck with SeaKlear 4 in 1.  For regular maintenance I use it every other week (alternating with a stain/scale preventer) and run the filters for an hour afterwards.  I then rinse off the filters or replace them if they are due for a cleaning.  If I have guests, I do the same immediately after they leave (along with a triple dose of dichlor .  A bunch of unrinsed suits/cosmetics/hair care products may require 2-3 applications.

Someone, I believe Drewski or Windsurfdog, has posted a routine for recovering from a lot of guests.  FYI, some people don't like to use clarifiers because they see an increase in foam after they put them in.  IMO that is the product doing its' job by getting all the stuff to clump together.  That is why long filter run is important, as is a filter rinse after.  Sometimes you can aid the filters by skimming the foam off after a clarifier application

A dirty duck/scumball etc can help by trapping some of the oils and gunk, but they only get the stuff that floats by them, and one squeeze by a guest puts the stuff right back in the tub.  IMO the best place for them is in the filter compartment, or allowing them to float freely after everyone is out.

I might be wrong on this, but unless you are using a mineral cartridge, I don't see why you can't add metal remover now.  Just like the clarifier, filter a long time and then immediately rinse the filters so the stuff can't release and float back in.

[johnvb]

John,
 
Do you have alka-seltzer like air bubbles in your water too?

 Vinny

Yes, I have that and foam, especially when we crank up the air valves to the foot jets. It's funny, no one really cares about the foam except my wife, who will leave off the second pump and all air valves, just to avoid it. My kids, on the other hand, have a blast, like they're in a "mister bubbles" commercial (remember those?)

As soon as the air is shut off, the foam almost instantly subsides.

I usually do my weekly shock etc. on a Sunday, then wait until Monday to add the enzymes. It does seem to work as far as preventing tub ring.

[Vinny]

Originally my dealer said don't use clarifiers but I believe she's a little weak on the chemistry so I bought a bottle. Of course it was after I received my order from Doc that I decided to get a bottle and no one around here sold the Sea Klear.

I think it was drewski that mentioned what to do and I did purchase clarifier and it cleaned up my cloudy tub in about 12 hours (circ pump) and I did remove the filters and gave them a good cleaning. I learned what to do with guests twice (I'm a little hard headed) first time my tub was clear and 3 days later is when the cloudiness appeared - did drain and refill; 2nd time my guests went into the pool first and I thought they were sanitized - new water so I used the clarifier.

It's interesting that when I put in the new water, my kids went into the tub and I had the scum line the next morning - wouldn't have had a chance adding clarifier - LOL. I guess that's what 2 sweaty kids will do to your new hot water.

After reading the bottle of shock, there's extra "stuff" in it that maybe is causing the tub to foam. I did like the idea of using MPS and dichlor together, but maybe the other ingredients are either foaming or causing the enzymes to foam.

I guess I'll try not adding that shock product but use MPS or dichlor or both. Maybe the it'll take new water to prove/dis-prove that it was the cause.

Thanks all!

[Michigander]

With my first batch of water, I had foam and a green ring all the time.  This got me in a bad cycle of adding the foam remover then messing with the chemicals until everything was back inline.  

I have since drained the tub and used solely dichloro and ozone.  Morale of my story was simple is better.  On a rare occasion, I have used the calrifier with lots of foam for about 2 days after.  Then i get a nasty green ring in the filter compartment which I just wipe out with an old towel.  My water has been sparkling clean since I have switched to dichloro only.

Good luck.  I bet Chas would say drain and the tub and start with fresh water and do not over-medicate (self or tub).

[bulmer4nc]

Try shocking with dichlor instead of the MPS product you're using.  I usually use about 3tbsp once a week to superchlorinate as a shock.  Also, if you're going to use a clarifier I'd recommend the Sea Klear 4-in-1 Clarifier.  It's the only one that I've found that doesn't create any foam.  I've used as much as 3oz in one shot and still no foam.

[HotTubMan]

I find the biggest mistakes enzyme users make are these:

1) Adding when there is a mid-high sanitizer level. This neutralizes the enzymes and actually contributes to foaming.
2) Sanitize or Oxidize to soon after applying it. This has the same effect as above.

I am uncertain what effect Nature II qould have, if any.

I always recommend that my customers add it one night after saoking instead of adding whatever they would usually add. Allow the enzymes to work while you sleep. Add the dichlor (or whatever you would have added after soaking) the next morning.

[bosco0633]

hey Vinny.

I was getting the brown line recently and my dealer told me it was from oils and the sut that sits on top of the water.  so I added a scum sponge and its gone, no chemicals.  14.00can and it lasts 30 to 60 days.  Its great so far.  I find that the side of the tub gets brown where the sponge is sometimes because it rubs up against the side of the tub.

[Vinny]

Thanks!

HotTubMan - that's exactly what the Spa Perfect person said - don't add dichlor right after soaking. Which leads into the question of - if I do add dichlor in the morning - could the bacteria level reach a extremely high level or would the enzymes keep it in check? Unfortunately, the Spa Perfect people seem to answer vaguely - I guess they don't need to know water chemistry in depth - just 'their product works'!

I'm a little uncertain about your comment "I always recommend that my customers add it one night after saoking instead of adding whatever they would usually add." as I believe the enzymes are supposed to last a week or so (at least Spa Perfect seems to imply that)

Bosco - I was wondering how well those things work - I am rethinking the enzymes and also rethinking the shock I use too. After reading the label last night, maybe it's causing my foam and alka-seltzer like bubbles too!

Thanks Again!

Vinny