Arctic hot tubs

[stl-rex]

This is a new issue for this board, (I think) but rather than start a new thread, I'm adding it to this one hoping it won't get moved to quickly as I'd like opinions.  It probably will fire off another debate.  Arctic markets their thermo technology as using pump heat to maintain tub temp.  I accept the premise that it works.  Keeping that tub in a more southern environment, where temps are routinely in the 90's and hit 100, I wonder about pump/electronics longevity since the pumps already operate in a "heated" environment and will more so in the south.  Yes there is a 5 year unconditional guarantee and they would be "easy" to replace.  But I wonder if the pump environment temps will climb too high to get true longevity.  I am not try to start a war.  I am carefully evaluating all the pros and cons of the brands we are considering.  Because they don't do things traditionally, I have more to evaluate with Arctic.  I continue to consider them because their deep therapy seat, available on several models, is the best of any tub we tested. - my opinion of course.  Thanks.

[ebirrane]

Again with the price - for the record - we purchased our Arctic in part because it cost less than the other tubs we were researching.

Glad you got a deal. It is nice to hear good price stories too.

-Ed

[ebirrane]

Arctic markets their thermo technology as using pump heat to maintain tub temp.  I accept the premise that it works.

I don't think anyone says that it doesn't work.  People argue about what happens for the 20-odd hours a day when the pumps are not running.  In a store with an ambient temp in the 70's, probably nothing. In the dead of winter, who knows.  For the south? Probably no difference.

 Keeping that tub in a more southern environment, where temps are routinely in the 90's and hit 100, I wonder about pump/electronics longevity since the pumps already operate in a "heated" environment and will more so in the south.

The actual chance of a jet pump dying in the first 5 years, I would imagine, is probably low but certainly not unheard of.  The real question is, on that 6th year and beyond how much does it take to fix/replace one?

More important than the added stress on the jets is what some people describe as "heat creep".  All hot tubs that have any kind of reliable insulation have it.

It's in the middle of summer, it's 95 degrees as night. You have the temp set to 80 to try and cool things off.  You open the tub and it reads 102. Blech.  What can you do? Leave the cover open just a bit to let some hot air escape.  The next night, it's down to around 95. Yay. Same with my Hot Springs. Same with alot of other tubs.

I would imagine with tubs that reclaim from the pump add an extra line to the story:

Now, you get in the tub, turn the pumps on, and after 30 minutes, the temp. is back up to 100. Yuck.

It seems Arctic sells mostly to northern snowy climates where this is not as much of an issue. I wonder if they could somehow modify their design to incorporate a thermal louvre system in the base??

-Ed

[stl-rex]

It's in the middle of summer, it's 95 degrees as night.
I would imagine with tubs that reclaim from the pump add an extra line to the story:

Now, you get in the tub, turn the pumps on, and after 30 minutes, the temp. is back up to 100. Yuck.

-Ed

Another point that I left out.  Thank you.  With the pumps running in a 90 degree climate, even if you use the air jets, it might not stay cool since it would be blowing warm air in.  The air pulls from the pump environment first.  Interesting scenario and well stated.

[Hot Tub Guru]

Yes the summer times can be a problem, people don't want there tub at 102.  So Arctic has a solution.   "Summer Doors".  These are doors with no insulation, they have louvers and a screen behind so things can't get in.  To get an Arctic too cool down you have to take insulation off the spa.  So an Arctic Spa is actually too well insulated.  

Arctic’s pumps are a 56 frame as opposed to a 48 frame.  The motors are bigger, the bearings are bigger, so the pump should last longer.  It also says AMB 50 degrees Celsius.  I believe that means the average temperature the pump can run is equal to 122 degrees fairinhite.  The cabinet is almost always with in a degree or two of the water temperature.  So most of the time your pumps are running at a 102 degree area.  


Michael
www.HeavenlyTimes.com

[ebirrane]

Yes the summer times can be a problem, people don't want there tub at 102.  So Arctic has a solution.   "Summer Doors".  These are doors with no insulation, they have louvers and a screen behind so things can't get in.  To get an Arctic too cool down you have to take insulation off the spa.  So an Arctic Spa is actually too well insulated.  

Cool.  You can modify your Arctic tubs to behave like every other tub on the market!  Are the summer doors extra or do they come with the tub.  It might be something you want to negotiate with if you are buying such a tub in a warmer climate.  Same with possibly getting a thinner, less-heavy cover.

-Ed

[Hot Tub Guru]

Yes Arctics can be modified.  Yes summer doors are extra.

Good luck!

Michael
www.HeavenlyTimes.com

[bootstuckinmud]

So in a sense of what your saying is that your insulation design on the arctic spa is flawed because your have to shell out more money for "special summer doors" to prevent the pumps from over heating... it just seems that you re better off buying a different tub where you dont have to buy special  
panels and not have to worry about pump failure.

just a quick refence  I dont know if this has been mentioned b4 or if anybody cares sorry if it  was    In the arctic spas 2003 brochure theres a page where it shows a comparison of a tub and house  and the heating values   at the bottom it tells how the efficiency and other jargon have been evaluted by some utility in colorado  but in the new ones on the same page ITS NOT THERE ANYMORE
reason being is that the utility NEVER EXISTED ARCTIC MADE IT UP  now how can you honestly buy a tub from a company that bases everything on deciet


It may be a ramble but you Arctic guys really bug me  but we all have to make a livin!

[bosco0633]

and sorry, bootstuckinmud, which brand did you say you sell again.   2 posts in and already sticking it out there.  If you did any type of homework you would understand that high temps plague every tub in the summer months.  These doors assist in letting some heat out that all, not a flaw.  

Dont make stupid comments if you want to gain respect on your second post.  

I mean seriously, why say something like staying away from a brand specifically or TYPING IN CAPITALS THAT ARTIC LIES.  

I THINK YOU HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO CREDIBILITY ON THIS BOARD, this doesnt make the comment anymore true.  

So lets get to the point sir, just tell us what tub we should be buying now..............waiting

See this is what I have been talking about all this time.  Some people just make this board terrible.

[stl-rex]

I dont know if this has been mentioned b4 or if anybody cares sorry if it  was    In the arctic spas 2003 brochure theres a page where it shows a comparison of a tub and house  and the heating values   at the bottom it tells how the efficiency and other jargon have been evaluted by some utility in colorado  but in the new ones on the same page ITS NOT THERE ANYMORE
reason being is that the utility NEVER EXISTED ARCTIC MADE IT UP  now how can you honestly buy a tub from a company that bases everything on deciet

Perhaps you should check their website and click on "performance reports" before making unsubstantiated accusations.  It's http://www.goarctic.com.  You are correct in stating performance testing is not in the current brochures.  You are incorrect in asserting that it never existed.  It's just not in the current brochure.  

Perhaps you should rename yourself "footstuckinmouth".

[Hot Tub Guru]

No the Arctic Tub isn’t flawed, its just too well insulated.  It's called Arctic Spa; it's built for the COLD weather.  So if a customer wants there spa 102 in the middle of the summer, the spa will work just fine the way it is (with no over-heating of the pump).  If a customer wants the spa at 95 the only way that can happen is taking insulation OFF the spa.  A customer doesn’t have to buy the doors if they don't want to.  Leave the doors off, so there are now NO extra costs.  What is so hard to understand about that concept?  

I wish people would stop slandering Arctic Spas just because they are losing sales.  People need to find out the facts before they post comments about Arctic lying.  This happens time and time again where the poster then has a few people back up a post with factual things.  The test you’re talking about in the first brochure was conducted in Loveland by a customer (of a full foam spa) who worked for the utility company.  He saw an Arctic somewhere (not sure where) and he too couldn't believe that an Arctic was cheaper.  So he decided to do the study himself.  The results are posted at http://goarctic.com/downloads/performance/Cost%20Comparison-Cold%20Weather.pdf.

Please do a study for yourself.

Michael
www.HeavenlyTimes.com

[stl-rex]

Doors off is not appealing, but just one set of doors for one side would probably be sufficient for summer ventilation.  I've also heard that Arctic is working on a Chiller for their spa which would actually drop the temperature much like a heater raises it.  The technology exists to do that, but I have no idea what it might cost.
I would have preferred to have the name of the foam filled spa on the paper.  I didn't see it.  "Foam-filled-spa" could be a Sams special which we all know isn't the same as HS/Sundance/D1 etc.  It would have lent credibility to the report.  The ARC report, which also casts Arctic in a positive light however does list names/models and also appears on the Arctic website.

[Hot Tub Guru]

Hmm the chiller is a new to me.  I will ask about that product in December during our annual dealer seminar.

Since there was only one spa they took the name off.  However the full foam spa was a Sundance.  

Well I would get two summer doors and put them on opposite sides of the spa.  This way you get cross ventilation.  If someone doesn’t want to spend few extra dollars on doors you can purchase a piece of screen and staple it to where the door would be.  

Michael
www.HeavenlyTimes.com

[ebirrane]

Doors off is not appealing, but just one set of doors for one side would probably be sufficient for summer ventilation.

It is a standard critique of the insulation method.  Put the pumps in with the water and the pumps will help heat the water.  As pumps are not actually controlled heaters, you get uncontrollable heat which is a pain no matter what, summer or winter. If it is the dead of winter and I want my tub at 101, I want it at 101, not 103, not 104.

Even sans "summer doors" (or, apparently, stapling a screen to the side of your tub where a door should be) the pumps do need ventilation.

There is no question that this kind of setup can work. The question is can it work in common consumer situations and/or does it work better than other far more mainstream and tested techniques.  The jury, for me, is still out on that.

As an aside, most major manufacturers (I know HS does) reclaim pump heat and use it to help heat the water. Ask Chas on here for details, he has posted pictures in the past.

 I've also heard that Arctic is working on a Chiller for their spa which would actually drop the temperature much like a heater raises it.  The technology exists to do that, but I have no idea what it might cost.

Again, that sounds like a "hack turned feature" to, possibly, account for the design above.  Adding layers of complexity as a problem-solving strategy to long-life systems is not always sound engineering.  But, that is, frankly, an off-the-cuff judgement.

I would have preferred to have the name of the foam filled spa on the paper.  I didn't see it.  "Foam-filled-spa" could be a Sams special which we all know isn't the same as HS/Sundance/D1 etc.  It would have lent credibility to the report.  The ARC report, which also casts Arctic in a positive light however does list names/models and also appears on the Arctic website.

The biggest problem with the reports that arctic publishes is the cover thickness.  Barring gross side insulation errors, most heat in a tub, especially in cold temperatures, is lost through the top. This is because the insulation material is thinner (you don't want a 20" thick cover) and the "seal" around the hot tub shell is not airtight.

The Arctic cover is something like 2x thicker.  It is better insulation, it is standard on the tubs.  it is overkill in some applications and not in others. It is NOT unheard of, in cold weather areas, to purchase a "cover upgrade" for almost any manufacturer's tub.

What shocked me about the test (if is is the one which mentions HS) is how close the arctic and HS came in terms of energy efficiency.  And that was with arctic having a HUGE cover advantage.  This leads me to believe that HS has superior side-insulation and that were a similarly beefy cover to be put on the HS it would blow the pants off of the arctic (if, indeed, artic tubs wore pants). Were I to be in a cold climate (like -30deg cold climate), I would purchase a HS with an upgraded cover.

Now, beleive it or not that isn't a HS commercial.  If you don't like a HS tub, don't buy it.

My point was the depressing abuse of numbers as a sales tactic. The study is not sold based on the caveats that make it independent and scientific.  It is sold on the ability to downplay those things which even out the playing field and up-play strawman arguments to help show tubs.

-Ed

[Kyle]

I've always wondered about that thermal area that uses the pumps heat to keep costs down.  If the spa has to be running to keep heat generateing around the spa cabinet area.  How can that be efficient?  Air space in cold weather will become cold very quickly.  I have a feeling that the 3-4 amp motor will have to run a lot during the day to keep temperature in the water.  Has there ever been a third party test from Coleman, Arctic or Master that stated official testing standards by equipment and not theory?