arctic pumps and heaters

[stl-rex]

Steve - thanks for the clarification.  Yes the dealer did the obligatory song and dance, but there was no pressure to buy, nothing like "if you buy this today it will be xxxx dollars".  Being new is a concern, but perhaps they will try a bit harder being new.  Everyone has to start somewhere.  Since it is a growing company, I don't forsee them tanking it any time soon.  You should wet test them sometime, if anything to put the last piece of the puzzle in place regarding your thoughts on the tub.

Bosco - I agree completely with you regarding the arm rests.  Sure you're arms want to float, but having the arm rests absolutely gives us a place to put our hands rather than just floating about.  Since we're not the tallest folks, it helps us even more.  We found all corner seats in the Tundra very comfortable.  Some dry test loungers feel very comfortable dry, but aren't so wet due to float.  I'm more concerned with seated comfort than being able to easily slide around and switch places.

[Vinny]

Bosco - I agree completely with you regarding the arm rests.  Sure you're arms want to float, but having the arm rests absolutely gives us a place to put our hands rather than just floating about.

Once you get a tub and go in with your significant other - you'll know what to do with your hands!

[JcDenton]

Personally, it was the arm rests that were an important influence in our decision. Since I am the kind of guy who cannot leave his hands underwater (shrivel up fast), I needed something to rest my elbows on. The open-bench style seating reminds me of my old pick-up truck while my new contoured tub is more like my captain's chairs in my new ride.

Our arms (wife and I) do not float out of any seat really. In fact, it has never been an issue at all.

The only problem we've had with our tub (and Bosco will concur also) is some of the jets spin to the off position on thier own. Others have just popped right out. However, any jets that needed replacement weren't even questioned at my dealer. They are covered under warrenty. I also think that the dealer is aware of this in other tubs he has sold.


I also agree with Steve and the others who question the tactics of the no-heater sales pitch. Those who wish to make such statements in a forum like this should be more prepared to defend their positions - many people here are experts and should find fault with such a general blanket statement.





Just my 1 cent.

Jc

[JcDenton]

I have something that I would like to throw-out there for arguement's sake. The statement:

The heater is a 5.5kw heater (however since the heat from the pump is used to heat the spa this heater rarely comes on)

...causes much grief and friction on this forum. I would like to weigh-in with a thought about this.

While I was just soaking in my Arctic, I noticed that my temperature was 102. Nothing new, but then I began to think about the no-heater debate that often occurs on this site. Considering that my set temperature is only 101, logically then I should be safe to assume that the heater would only be responsible to raise the water temp to 101 if necessary, before shutting off. Yet, I am over my set temp.

Now, I began thinking about the past several months. During that time our actual tub temp has always been at least one degree higher than our set temp. So is it fair to say that over the past several months the heater has not been used?

We live in the north, where summer is short and winter is not. If, however, we lived where most of you people live (warmer south of the USA), where the climate is MUCH warmer and possibly comparable to what we are experiencing here right now - would these conditions not echo the same results?


I can't help but feel that they would. If so, then the statement is not necessarily false under certain conditions. In the winter, there is NO DOUBT that our heater is a vital part of keeping the water warm.

Furthermore, this past week here has seen below normal temperatures. Near freezing at night. I could see my breath on the way to the tub. Yet the tub temp was still over the set temp.


Anyone has any gas left on this topic?


Jc

[drewstar]

Personally, it was the arm rests that were an important influence in our decision. Since I am the kind of guy who cannot leave his hands underwater (shrivel up fast), I needed something to rest my elbows on. The open-bench style seating reminds me of my old pick-up truck while my new contoured tub is more like my captain's chairs in my new ride.

Jc

I liked the idea of arm rests too, but my experince was a bit different. I couldn't find a tub that had molded arm rests that I felt comfortable using.  Just the opposite,  the tubs i tested, I found the arm rests  too big and  put my arms in an uncomfortable position  and if i tried to put my arms down, the rests got in the way.  

So, I guess this is a testiment to wet testing.  What fits one person may not fit another.  

Damn you folks with normal sized arms!

[stl-rex]

To further clarify, the dealer in no way represented the tub as not really needing the heater or that the heater never came on.

Is the Arctic method superior?  I accept the fact their approach is different and that they have ARC data to back up the fact that their tub is efficient out of the box.  Can other FF tubs be made more efficient with a thicker cover?  Perhaps.  But all things equal, ie being out of the box, Arctic holds its own.  However it certainly would not entice me to buy it if it wasn't comfortable.  If we find them the most comfortable, we'll focus on them.  If we find D1 or Sundance to be more comfortable, we'll focus on them.  We won't be focusing on Master, not because of the tub, but because we don't like the sales person there.

[Rayman]

I have something that I would like to throw-out there for arguement's sake. The statement:



...causes much grief and friction on this forum. I would like to weigh-in with a thought about this.

While I was just soaking in my Arctic, I noticed that my temperature was 102. Nothing new, but then I began to think about the no-heater debate that often occurs on this site. Considering that my set temperature is only 101, logically then I should be safe to assume that the heater would only be responsible to raise the water temp to 101 if necessary, before shutting off. Yet, I am over my set temp.

I too am in a cold climate and my tub is a FF Beachcomber.  When I had the model without the circ pump my temp was always 2 degrees over what was set temp was due to filtration cycles heating the water while filtering.  Now that I have the model with the circ pump my tub goes upto 1 degree over but rarely unless the cover has been on all day on a hot day.  I would have to say you would need the pumps on at least 12 of the 24 hours to heat the water and that's if you don't open the cover and use the tub.  If the pumps were that effecient at heating the water on an Artic then why not use a 4kw heater instead of a 5.5 kw heater?

Ray

[stabone]

  The size of the heater is more to maintain temps while you are using the tub in extreme cold!!  Not for normal heating while cover is on.

[Rayman]

 The size of the heater is more to maintain temps while you are using the tub in extreme cold!!  Not for normal heating while cover is on.

Good point, but what about the other 23 hours and 40 minutes a day.  Do they suggest running the filter cycle 12-18 hous per day on low speed pump without a circ pump?  If they have a circ pump they don't give off enough heat to heat the water.

Ray

[ebirrane]

While I was just soaking in my Arctic, I noticed that my temperature was 102. Nothing new, but then I began to think about the no-heater debate that often occurs on this site. Considering that my set temperature is only 101, logically then I should be safe to assume that the heater would only be responsible to raise the water temp to 101 if necessary, before shutting off. Yet, I am over my set temp.

Now, I began thinking about the past several months. During that time our actual tub temp has always been at least one degree higher than our set temp. So is it fair to say that over the past several months the heater has not been used?

You are correct!  And, like most other things, this is not unique to Arctic. A good bit of it has to do with being summer.  

I have a hot spring. We set the temp to 80 degrees during the summer to ensure that the heater doesn't come on.  2 days ago the tub was sitting at 101 degrees.  That's with no pumps running *at all* that day, except the circulation pump.

On our deck our outdoor "stick-on-the-window" thermometer measures a temperature of 120 degrees.  

Using out tub for 2 hours *last* night, with temps in the 60's, the tub dropped from 101 to about 100 (floating thermometer reading).  Again, our heater is set all the way down - we don't want it on in the summer.

If anything, you are running "cool". Some efficient thermopane tubs have heat creep into the 104-105 range while operating in the summer.  The most common piece of advice on this board is to prop the cover up with paper-towel rolls or tennis balls to let that heat escape. I wonder if your heat creep is constrained based on hot air escape through the sides of the tub.

The debate gets going when you start talking about running these things in the winter.  What most people find ludicrous is that Arctic (painting with a wide brush here, I know) takes standard behavior/features that are in common with other tubs and then uses such behavior/features as aggressive selling points.

Here, let me pretend to be a HS salesguy:

HS doesn't use the heater to heats its water. My grandee heater has not turned on once since April and I have temps of 101 degrees in the evening when we tub. Hot Springs uses a thermal enhancement transferal system to maximally utilize the heat escape and capture from the low-energy high-filtration yield circulation pump to provide all the heat needed for this large tub. Other tubs need multi-thousand-watt expensive-to-run heaters to duplicate this very inexpensive behavior.

How'd I do? It doesn't hold a candle to some of the statements we see on here, but I'm just learning how to hoodwink...

Peace
-Ed

[Soakin]

...HS doesn't use the heater to heats its water. My grandee heater has not turned on once since April and I have temps of 101 degrees in the evening when we tub. Hot Springs uses a thermal enhancement transferal system to maximally utilize the heat escape and capture from the low-energy high-filtration yield circulation pump to provide all the heat needed for this large tub. Other tubs need multi-thousand-watt expensive-to-run heaters to duplicate this very inexpensive behavior...

Ed, I'll go you one better .  If I let it, my Saratoga will go into "Summer Mode" when the water temp exceeds the set temp by 2 degrees.  That shuts down the heater,ozone, and the circ pump for 3 out of 4 hours so there are NO heat sources.  Saratoga evidently uses special solar collecting exterior materials to capture the sun's energy and keep my tub several degrees warmer than the set point while using NO ELECTRICITY AT ALL! in the summer months

Now the problem with that is if that circ pump is such a great feature (it was part of their premium water managment system when I bought it), why would I want it running only 25% of the time for half the year?

[ebirrane]

Soakin,

 I completely forgot about those specially-treated exterior solar-reactive material on those tubs!  Saratoga better keep those things an industry secret!



-Ed

ps. JC, this humor isn't meant to belittle what you are observing or posting about.  For all the bashing, maybe some of the other salespeople on here could borrow from (and tone down?) some of the arctic sales pitches because arctic is clearly making people think they are unique in these areas.  That's the only beef, and the only "target" of the humor.

[drewstar]

Bosco I can agree to a certain point with your car buying analogy.

When I buy a new car in addition to the features, style, overall quality, I am concerned with how much money the thing is going to cost me in gas.

With a spa,  heating costs are important to me.  This is where all the talk about insualtion, hp and heaters comes in.  I think many consumers do give a sh t about it.   And since there's so much mumbo-jumbo out their, us consumers find ourselves trying to figure it all out.

I know an Artic owner and he's happy with his spa. From what I've heard, it is a decent spa. It's unfortunate that over zealous salesmen make outrageous claims and that causes other brand salesmen to jump on them when ever a problem is noted.  Artic brings it upon themselves, unfroutantely as an Artic owner, I can see how you feel it reflects upon you.

Oh, BTW...You don't really drive a Ford, do you?  

[Rayman]

Oh, BTW...You don't really drive a Ford, do you?  

Hey I drive a Ford and ride a Honda.  By the way in the summer months on steep hills I can achieve 50 miles an hour without using the engine on my bike, with a passenger maybe 55 miles an hour.  In the winter months I get better mileage cause it never leaves the garage, on rainy days hills are hard to come by.............


Ray

[stabone]

     What is with this question about the other 16 to 20 hors a day that the tub is not filtering.  What do other TP tubs do during those times, Arctic does the same.  If the heater needs to come on it does, just like any other tub.   The warm water inside the shell heats the cabinet space, (because there is no insulation around the shell like most other TP design).   In the winter I recommend are tubs be set at 4 filter cycles, 2 hours at a time per day.  (8 hours total, 6 hour breaks between cycles).    
 While the pumps run to filter, whatever heat comes from them is captured in the cabinet helping maintain the temp of both the air space and water temp.  If during the times between filter cycles the tub needs to heat it will, I don't understand what is so confusing about that.  
   The reason the ambient heat from the pumps on an Arctic is more beneficial to actually keeping the water warm is that there is not insulation between the water and heat from the equipment, which is why the cabinet or equipment area does not have to be vented, ( to let the heat escape)  It is sealed underneath the cabinet, because the surface area of the shell surrounding the water and all the piping is much larger an area for heat tranfer than other tubs have.  Which results in a better % of the heat from the pumps  actually working towards maintaining the water temp, even if it is the same amount of heat.
     For example, this winter I took a typical TP tub that I removed from a yard. I will call this, tub 1 (  Insulation around the shell and piping, cabinet had foam board insulation attached to cabinet on the flat walls,  no insulation on cabinet infront of equipment, cabinet had small vents infront of equipment.   (Tub 2)  Arctic Spa,  4 to 5 inches of sprayed insulation around cabinet, no insulation on fiberglass shell.  ( Arctic Cover was on both tubs, the other tubs' cover was ruined)
    Underneath each cabinet I put identical electric space heaters, on low speed.  2 hours later  I took the covers off both tubs.  
     
  Tub 1)  Cabinet air space was noticable warmer, however when I took the cover off the air space  under the cover (Where the water would go if the tub was filled)  was not not warmer than the outside temp.
             
   Tub2)  Cabinet air space was noticable warm, (same as tub 1, however the air under the cover inside the shell was also noticable warmer.  
 
    The same amount of heat, resulted in different amounts of heat transfered.   I am not saying it is better, or more efficient, only that  I don;t know why you can't see that it is different than  the way other tubs transfer  heat from there style of insulation.   The final result maybe equal operating, that is not the issue, the issue is  how the Arctic design uses the same amount of heat from pumps as other TP tubs that run on filter cycles, yet transfer more heat to the water .