arctic pumps and heaters

[stl-rex]

Could someone in the know let me know a couple of things about the Arctic tubs please.  I could not find it on their website.  The HP (brake and continuous) of the pumps in the arctic legend+ tubs and the KW's of the heater.  Looking at Tundra (probably not- too big) and Frontier.  Mabye Summit if those two don't work although it has the same footprint of the Tundra, it lays differently.  We're beginning our HT search and while not necessarily critical vs wet testing, it would be nice to know.  

We're going to attempt to hit Arctic, D1 and Sundance.  Maybe HS, Marquis and Master.  If those all fail, Caldera Tahitian.  Non haggled Telephone quotes yielded similar numbers for the D1 Diplomat and Marquis Epic.  HS Envoy about $500 higher.  Sundance was rangy at best with nothing close to a single figure on their Optima/Cameo or Altimar.  The Arctic number was considerably higher, but I believe they have the most inflated starting point.  I know about all the other brands but after internet research, those are to which it is narrowed.

Info/comments appreciated.

[Hot Tub Guru]

Arctic Spa's use a 56 frame 4 hp pump (not sure if it's brake and continuous).

The heater is a 5.5kw heater (however since the heat from the pump is used to heat the spa this heater rarely comes on)

Please let me know if you need any further information.

Michael
www.HeavenlyTimes.com

[stl-rex]

Made the rounds.  D1 Californian (all that was wet)  Sundance Maxxus and Bahia, Arctic Frontier and Tundra.
D1 Californian - nice tub, but not for us.  The lounge is way to big and the seats are a bit deep.  The adjustable four jet headrest is effective and does not splash if you keep it close to or in the water.  Some of the Jets may be on bearings but they are effective and feel good.  The CA has new for 2005 jets in the lounger such that if we were to buy a Diplomat, we would have them swapped into at least one of the lounges.  We have to get them to fill a Diplomat.  It has two loungers, but both appear to accomodate shorter people.  They are heavily sculpted and I think they will feel great.  If you are overweight, forget it (just being honest).  Price on the Diplomat is attractive.  The telephone quote was an honest misquote and gives them a nice advantage over the others.
Sundance - didn't care for either tub.  Maxxus is big and impressive but not for shorter folks.  Me at 5'7" and my wife at 5'2" didn't have much fun.  The accussage seat is Ok, but the jets don't do much other than drill into you.  The bahia fit a little better but we still didn't care that much for it.  We want to wet test the Optima.  The open plan was not our first choice, but the Optima center foot jets gives you two jets per foot per corner and thus gives you a nice way to brace to keep from floating.  They are proud of their Spas and price them that way.  Without much haggling, they seemed a bit high and the place was pushing blemished to try to be competitive.
Lastly Arctic.  Both models were Legend SE's.  The SE is equivalent to the legend extreme but with an extended warranty and their high performance ozone.  We're considering an Extreme version.  The Frontier is nice and the lounges did not produce excessive float, but with no real arm rests of which to speak they weren't as comfortable as I thought they might be.  The other two seats were comfortable and although they are deep, they have arm rests which lend support and help minimize float.  The whale jet will punish your feet (in a good way!).  The Tundra is big and flexible.  Too big for us we thought at first, but that's the one we're keying on in the Arctic line.  There are 4 comfortable corner buckets that even my 5'2" wife can stay in.  Two of the corners buckets have dedicated feet and wrist jets, very nice.  The other two have more intense shoulder and neck therapy but you can reach two jets for your feet in the center if you desire.  All 4 corner seats have arm rests which help to minimize and control float.  The other three seats sit higher but still provide good therapy.  You really sit down in this tub.  The water level is some 3" plus below the edge by design.  Perfect for keeping wind off your face.  It also make for nice deep beverage holders.  What I'm not sure I like is basically you run all the pumps one speed and use diverters.  It is confusing for a newb to get them all straight with just a short soak.  I suppose you get used to it.  You can isolate certain areas, but to have the whale jet on, it takes a lot of power from other places.  The therapy air is a nice touch for cool down or if you want a break and it's not terribly expensive.  Subjectively, the jets in this tub were the most effective and therapeutic.  Many had exaggerated massage action and felt great.
Subjectively, the quality "feel" of the spas had Artic and Sundance mostly tied with D1 trailing but not by much.  Subjectively, the real Cedar Arctics were the most handsome by far, but you buy a tub to soak in it, not look at it.  The optional aluminum is a bit pricey, but is totally maintenance free.  Objectively, the D1 Diplomat (to be tested) has the best price point without a doubt.  $8k with cover, cover lifter, ozone, steps and starter chemicals and a granite like (in stock) surface with minimal haggling seems very competitive.  The others go up from there. To be fair, the others aren't over $10K
We have to go to the Master dealer to get a friend a gift for his LS1050, so we'll check them out tomorrow.  They were competitive in price with the arctic and sundance, but not D1.  THe last time I was there, I wasn't overly impressed.
We've already contacted our "handyman" who works construction but does side work about running the electric and pouring the concrete.  No problem.  We just need a price from him.
I currently lean to the Tundra based on wet testing, but the dry test of the Diplomat lounges was very encouraging.  I've sat in many dry lounges and they by far were the most comfortable for people a bit vertically challenged.  Today was more fun than I thought it would be.

[stl-rex]

Arctic Spa's use a 56 frame 4 hp pump (not sure if it's brake and continuous).

The heater is a 5.5kw heater (however since the heat from the pump is used to heat the spa this heater rarely comes on)

Please let me know if you need any further information.

Michael
www.HeavenlyTimes.com

Michael - thanks for the info.

[Tman122]

Arctic Spa's use a 56 frame 4 hp pump (not sure if it's brake and continuous).
The heater is a 5.5kw heater (however since the heat from the pump is used to heat the spa this heater rarely comes on)
Michael
www.HeavenlyTimes.com

Ya see now this is the kind of post that just gets me going. So tell me Michael why do they even put a heater in then if it rarely comes on, far as I knew all tubs heaters rarely come on. So if they use the pumps to heat up the water then here in Northern Minnesota what happens when the pumps aren't running? Or do they run all day? I need about 4 hours of filtering to keep my water clear and clean, but if I have to run my pumps all day to keep my water hot wouldn't that be like a waste? A heater is made for heating water and a pump is made for pumping water or did I screw this up? Or just maybe this sales pitch regarding using the pump to heat water is slightly exagerated and should read.

"We utilize the heat generated from the filtration cycle to increase the R-Factor on our side walls which "helps" to minimize heat loss during run time.

But there's alot of tubs out there that do this so no big deal.

[Tman122]

Oh and stl-rex sounds like your doing the right thing, testing several brands for fit on your backside and budget. And getting a feel also for the dealers. And your not falling for salesman retoric.

[Duffman]

We're going to attempt to hit Arctic, D1 and Sundance.  Maybe HS, Marquis and Master.  If those all fail, Caldera Tahitian.  Non haggled Telephone quotes yielded similar numbers for the D1 Diplomat and Marquis Epic.  HS Envoy about $500 higher.  Sundance was rangy at best with nothing close to a single figure on their Optima/Cameo or Altimar.  The Arctic number was considerably higher, but I believe they have the most inflated starting point.  I know about all the other brands but after.

sti-rex,

Great review. Since I don't have  D-1 or Sundance dealer in my area I was curious what others thought. As I read through your comments I saw that you mentioned the Caldera Tahitian. For the features you seem to want and price range you are looking at, I think you should definitely wet test the Niagara as well. It is definitely my favorite from the Caldera line and is one of the front runners on my list.

On the subject of price range I agree that Arctic definitely seems to have an inflated cost point. When I was talking cost with the dealer he started high but after some haggling, he offered a number that was just a huge drop in price. For about a 1/2 hour I was stewing over the tempation to put down a deposit right then, but I just had to walk away since I had not tested any other brands. The quote was written up on a Summit Extreme but I could have chosen a Tundra or Frontier as well.

Since I have not made a purchase and might do business with that dealer I do not want to give the number, but I will say that I got the price down to a range where it was comparable to a decent deal on a Caldera Niagara or Marquis Epic.

Good luck in your search.

[Steve]

The heater is a 5.5kw heater (however since the heat from the pump is used to heat the spa this heater rarely comes on)

Please let me know if you need any further information.

Michael
www.HeavenlyTimes.com

The following is a quote from Stabone (an Arctic guy):

The pumps do not keep the air space warm- the water does!  Whatever heat (even if it is just small amounts through out the day during the filtering cycles) Is used not wasted to help retain air space and water temp.  Unlike a HydroPool the heat from the pumps is not blocked from the water by insulation nor is the heat from the water blocked  from heating the air space.  The pump heat is just a bonus!!  

So this shows my frustration (and others as well) when it comes to the "marketing" of an Arctic spa. Nobody there can get their story straight and they're all telling different stories. Come on guys...get one story and work on it!

Hot Tub Guru eh? The word "Guru" means;  A trusted counselor and adviser; a mentor.

Yeah right! With all the diffrent stories you guys have, the credibility of your company suffers. Somebody needs to be a "trusted adviser", the problem is, no one knows who believe there...

Steve
 

[stl-rex]

sti-rex,

On the subject of price range I agree that Arctic definitely seems to have an inflated cost point. When I was talking cost with the dealer he started high but after some haggling, he offered a number that was just a huge drop in price. For about a 1/2 hour I was stewing over the tempation to put down a deposit right then, but I just had to walk away since I had not tested any other brands. The quote was written up on a Summit Extreme but I could have chosen a Tundra or Frontier as well.

Since I have not made a purchase and might do business with that dealer I do not want to give the number, but I will say that I got the price down to a range where it was comparable to a decent deal on a Caldera Niagara or Marquis Epic.

Good luck in your search.

I threw the Tahitian out there because it is a smaller version of the Geneva.  I have been in it as a friend has one.  Seat float in the lounge makes it not for us.  If the Tahitian lounge is 6 inches shorter, it might work.  The Niagra probably won't work.  We need a center foot jet area for leverage, like in the Sundance Optima.

After several wet tests in other spas and getting probably close to the Arctic's bottom line, I too was
close to dropping a deposit, but we still have couple of more we want to sit in and the dealer has a little more room.  Good luck and let me know what you decide.

[stuart]

Ya see now this is the kind of post that just gets me going. So tell me Michael why do they even put a heater in then if it rarely comes on, far as I knew all tubs heaters rarely come on. So if they use the pumps to heat up the water then here in Northern Minnesota what happens when the pumps aren't running? Or do they run all day? I need about 4 hours of filtering to keep my water clear and clean, but if I have to run my pumps all day to keep my water hot wouldn't that be like a waste? A heater is made for heating water and a pump is made for pumping water or did I screw this up? Or just maybe this sales pitch regarding using the pump to heat water is slightly exagerated and should read.

"We utilize the heat generated from the filtration cycle to increase the R-Factor on our side walls which "helps" to minimize heat loss during run time.

But there's alot of tubs out there that do this so no big deal.

I couldn't agree with you more! In fact to go even further, why would you put such an expensive heater in the spa?

How do you keep the heat off of the equipment? Wouldn't the constant high heat in the cabinet break down the electric and electronic equipment over time?

Here's the math for horse power on pumps, it's about 4 amps for every HP so if the claim is that the pump is 5 HP that would be about 20 amps. If you have 2 pumps that would be about 40 amps. Add your heater at 15 to 20 amps and you now need an 80 amp or better breaker to run the spa.

What I'm trying to say is that if they claim over 2.8 HP than it is more than likely "brake" HP.

[stl-rex]

The following is a quote from Stabone (an Arctic guy):


So this shows my frustration (and others as well) when it comes to the "marketing" of an Arctic spa. Nobody there can get their story straight and they're all telling different stories. Come on guys...get one story and work on it!

Hot Tub Guru eh? The word "Guru" means;  A trusted counselor and adviser; a mentor.

Yeah right! With all the diffrent stories you guys have, the credibility of your company suffers. Somebody needs to be a "trusted adviser", the problem is, no one knows who believe there...

Steve
  

Steve - Out of curiosity, marketing rhetoric aside, what is your opinion of Arctic spas.  If the the seats fit, is there a downside to the brand?  Have you wet tested them?  Their jets are very diverse and effective.  Every dealer has a story as to why theirs is the best.  The D1 dealer here was the least aggresive, but that could have been the function of the salesperson more than anything.  Other than the full foam/thermopane argument, I haven't see anything that would warn me off other than the Arctic brand is new to the area and thus the dealer is new also.  Thanks!

[Steve]

Steve - Out of curiosity, marketing rhetoric aside, what is your opinion of Arctic spas.  If the the seats fit, is there a downside to the brand?  Have you wet tested them?  Their jets are very diverse and effective.  Every dealer has a story as to why theirs is the best.  The D1 dealer here was the least aggresive, but that could have been the function of the salesperson more than anything.  Other than the full foam/thermopane argument, I haven't see anything that would warn me off other than the Arctic brand is new to the area and thus the dealer is new also.  Thanks!

I do apologize for not addressing your question(s) directly in my post but the frustration with the marketing of this product is an ongoing issue and has been for some time with many on this forum.

If you go back to a number of posts of mine on this brand, you'll find that I've always considered them a decent tub. A little overpriced IMO, but decent.

That said, I believe much of this purchase is and should be the comfort YOU have with your dealer. A good dealer can make a world of difference with your purchase and that should  be one of the priorities for you.

I have never wet tested an Arctic though I've sat in many dry and have yet to find one that is comfortable for me personally. We're all different sizes and shapes and that's not to say that it won't be comfortable for you. I find their molds very restrictive to move around  and the use of "armrests" in the tub are usless. Once the tub is filled, your arms float and these armrests have no function at all other than restrcting movement within the spa.

I can't speak for all Arctic dealers but being 30 minutes from the factory, I hear many good things about the support from them and I do believe they look after their customers and dealers.

Where I get frustrated, is in the marketing machine they've created that moves the real focus of this purchase away from what's important and deals mostly with leaks and freezing, heating without heaters, floors that last "forever", 15 people can stand on their cover and on and on.

I don't believe these spas are any better than your average spa available today. If you wet test it and enjoy it, find great value in the product and your dealer is exceptional, then I say you've found the right spa for you!

Steve

[bosco0633]

Steve how are things going?

You and I have had it out before; because I let my emotions get the better of me.  For that I was wrong.  I was sick and tired of idiot sales people from Arctic coming on and acting like idiots, saying crap like were the best, strongest covers, jump on them you will see, oh yeah and were the best.  Dealer’s sales approach is like a sleazy sales guy, I do agree.
    The arctic spas makes a great quality tub, however, their sales pitch has ultimately blurred their quality reputation.  Arctic does in fact have a great quality made tub.  Their customer service record has yet to be challenged from all the reading that I have done on this forum in the past year.  That ultimately means that they back their product.  Sure their have been problems with plumbing, but lets fact it, they are still kind of the new boys on the block.  It takes time, and some mistakes before you become great.

In Ontario, a university called BROCK University opened in 1976.  Ontario had so many prestigious universities such as Queens, McMaster, Laurier and many other reputable schools.  How could a new university open and compete.  Well Brock decided that they would lower their acceptance averages and quickly filled their classrooms.  Over time, they became more reputable and they began to raise the averages for acceptance.  Now they are a quality reputable university, haunted with the old saying, “if you can walk and talk, you can go to Brock” Sure they have a rep as a school for anybody, but the bottom line is you graduate with a quality education and degree. Now Brock has the best kinesiology and teaching education in the province.  
    I just wanted to post, that I do have an arctic and disagree with the suggestion that the arm rests are useless.  Because you have only sat in one dry as you suggest, I would argue that you are not sure if the arm rests are a useless and that your arms float.  I am going to tell you that they are great, your arms don’t float, you finally have somewhere to put your arms and there is no way that they block the flow of water as you suggest, actually sorry restrict.  
    Let’s face it, these arctic guys do need a new approach but the bottom line is they were coming into a market with great established companies.  So how do you get to compete with these great companies?  I think you need to create a buzz, and like it or not that’s what has been done.  Every time the word Arctic appears in a post, it receives much attention and several replies.  So crummy sales rhetoric or not, they are achieving.  Arctic spas have infact become one of Canada’s top growing corporations.
   IMO people either purchase tubs on impulse or they research and learn to go out and wet test and try all the brands, but at the end of the day we purchase on comfort and trust in a dealer.  When you are spending 10,000 on a tub, I think that it is safe to say that if you drop your cash into a good quality brand you are going to be satisfied, as long as the tub fits you well.

I don’t think the average consumer really gives a sh       it     about heater output, or amps of a pump while running.  Let’s face it, the tub is something we want to relax and enjoy how many times you soak in your tub and say, I wonder what the amps are right now, or I wish that I would have purchased a tub that had a different electrical configuration.  It just doesn’t happen for the average consumer, maybe dealers or people in the business but not guys like me.

When we purchase a car, we go to the dealer because we have found a vehicle that has really caught our eye.  So now what, we go to a dealer close by, look at it, and the first things we want to do is getting in and give it a try.  We are attracted to leather seats, heated seats, stereo systems, rims, and all the fancy stuff.  How many times do we get under the car at a new lot and check the size of the rotors, and ask about the heating and warping % of rotors before purchasing, or asking what type of oil do we need for this vehicle.  The average person doesn’t care.  We go on look and feel.

If we went and purchased by reputation only then companies like FORD would be all but gone. FORD stands for FOUND ON ROADSIDE DEAD.  So how does Ford stay the number 1 selling Pickup and SUV?  Its appeal and desire for the product being sold.  People know that ford has had a history of lemons but the bottom line, is that they still sell.

These are my opinions only and I think that we need to stop being so technical all the time.  How come when people ask about other brands out there we don’t get into the big debate of jet quality, heating elements, insulation types, pump amps and all that other stuff.  We only see great tub or try this brand out by them.  When people come on here with horror stories of other brands you get people come on and say, that is so unusual, you must have just got a lemon.  Why not plague the whole company as you all do Arctic.

Im not upset anymore and Im not trying to defend arctic, because Arctic has done this to themselves.  I just think it’s only fair to offer my opinions as a user of this brand and my experiences.  

[Steve]

Excellent post bosco!

For clarification, you're right that I've never wet tested an Arctic but I have been in MANY spas wet that have armrests and water is water regardless of the brand of the spa. Arms and legs float in a hot tub. It's just natural.

If yours don't in your tub, that's great. I have no way to disprove that and I'll take your word for it.

The bottom line is you love your tub and that's what's important! I repect your opinion and I hope you continue to share it here Bosco. You're a "shoot from the hip" sorta guy!

Oh... and things are going very well thanks for asking. I'm typing from the beatiful country of Vancouver island (Victoria) and later today I'm going on a whale watching tour! I love my job!

Steve

[bosco0633]

thanks steve, have a great time, Canada is a beautiful place.