Lower bromine with ozonator?

[orlandoguy]

My rep says that one of the best things about an ozonator is that it lowers the amount of chemicals you need to keet the tub clean.

I have been keeping my bromine level on the lowest shade on the test strip, just below the ok range and was wondering if I am alone in this science???

[johnvb]

That's what I was told by my dealer also. So far so good!

[J._McD]

My rep says that one of the best things about an ozonator is that it lowers the amount of chemicals you need to keet the tub clean.

I have been keeping my bromine level on the lowest shade on the test strip, just below the ok range and was wondering if I am alone in this science???

This is true.  I have had more than 21 years of ozone experience.  I am not a scientist or an engineer, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn on more than on occasion.  

Ozone is an oxidizer, sanitizer which is exactly what chlorine and bromine are.  Chlorine and bromine are "contact" killers while ozone is a "search and find" killer.  IF ozone kills and oxidizes bacteria, viruses, nutrients, and minerals, than what is the purpose of chlorine or bromine?  They are a contact killer that will kill anything that comes in contact with it in the water when it is introduced.  So, it protects you from other "body bugs" that are introduced by others.  Well, usually a family always has the same "body bugs" anyway, but an invited guest may have uninvited "body bugs" that should be killed on contact.

Unlike Ozone, chemicals accumulate in the form of undissolved solids and require frequent to occasional water changes every 3 to 4 months.  Ozone will reduce the need for chemicals and will extend the duration of time between water changes for up to a year’s time.

As a matter of fact, and this is factually true, IF your water is clean and clear with minimal TDS (total dissolved solids, chemical residuals) when you change your water, your new water will likely be the same, clean and clear.  SO, IF it ain't broke don't fix it.  We have had customers with the SAME water in the spa for more than 3 years, and we have done bacteria sampling and extensive testing on the water that was clean, clear and still had an "invitation to drink" AFTER 3 years.

I know to some this may sound "unbelievable", But I stand to profit nothing or gain anything for you to believe or not.  It is true.

Good water management is SMART and Ozone WORKS.  As a matter of fact, if your water is clean and clear, unplug your ozonator and continue your routine and see how long before you have water problems.  Should you have any questions, please PM me.

[Steve]

This is true.  I have had more than 21 years of ozone experience.  I am not a scientist or an engineer, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn on more than on occasion.  

Ozone is an oxidizer, sanitizer which is exactly what chlorine and bromine are.  Chlorine and bromine are "contact" killers while ozone is a "search and find" killer.  IF ozone kills and oxidizes bacteria, viruses, nutrients, and minerals, than what is the purpose of chlorine or bromine?  They are a contact killer that will kill anything that comes in contact with it in the water when it is introduced.  So, it protects you from other "body bugs" that are introduced by others.  Well, usually a family always has the same "body bugs" anyway, but an invited guest may have uninvited "body bugs" that should be killed on contact.

Unlike Ozone, chemicals accumulate in the form of undissolved solids and require frequent to occasional water changes every 3 to 4 months.  Ozone will reduce the need for chemicals and will extend the duration of time between water changes for up to a year’s time.

As a matter of fact, and this is factually true, IF your water is clean and clear with minimal TDS (total dissolved solids, chemical residuals) when you change your water, your new water will likely be the same, clean and clear.  SO, IF it ain't broke don't fix it.  We have had customers with the SAME water in the spa for more than 3 years, and we have done bacteria sampling and extensive testing on the water that was clean, clear and still had an "invitation to drink" AFTER 3 years.

I know to some this may sound "unbelievable", But I stand to profit nothing or gain anything for you to believe or not.  It is true.

Good water management is SMART and Ozone WORKS.  As a matter of fact, if your water is clean and clear, unplug your ozonator and continue your routine and see how long before you have water problems.  Should you have any questions, please PM me.
 

Though I tend to disagree with much of what is said above, I will simplify my response to this.

Please provide data that shows how much my savings would be when ozone is used in comparison to not. What % in savings can be expected with the use of ozone? Is ozone considered a sanitizer or an oxidzer?

I don't claim to be a scientist either nor have studied the effect directly in lab conditions of the benefits of ozone but a great many years in this industry and tens of thousands of water analysis I have performed is enough for me to offer my opinion of disagreeing with 90% of your post McD. Sorry... :-/

For the record, I have owned a spa for years without the use of ozone and my water quality has ALWAYS been exceptional. I believe your opinion of the dramatic effect that would take place on a spa without ozone, is grossly overstated in relation to TDS.

It is interesting that 2 experienced people with a vast understanding of watercare can differ so much eh? We’re not the only 2…

Steve

[J._McD]

Steve, I am in complete agreement with you and I do not disagree with your point of view, nor do I challenge the numerous water analysis and testing you have done on "chemically" treated water.  I am more than confident you interpretation is accurate and I do not challenge your experience with "chemically"" treated water.

I have never represented ozone to be a money saver or that it is more financially efficient in the treatment of water.  But, I do agree with the initial post that indicates the use of "less" chemicals while using ozone.  You must have made the assumption this would represent savings while it very well may.

Please appreciate the fact that the scales of justice are blind and can only consider the evidence presented.  

Your evidence is relative to your experiences and my evidence is relative to mine, of which you are certainly at liberty to challenge the opposing point of view.  But, your opposition does not make it wrong.

You do use less chemicals in an ozone treated spa,
You do need chemicals in an ozone treated spa,  
You will have longer durations between water changes,
You will have less TDS in ozone treated water,
You will experience less water maintainence,

AND,

You can use anything you want to use in your own spa.  It is only what works for you.  And, the only thing that will work is what you try.  I have been trying it for more than 21 years.  Life is filled with examples of things that others always thought didn't work before they witnessed the difference.

That will always take time and your time has been dedicated in another, more common, direction than mine.  That make us different, but not wrong.  While we disagree and and this is a point of conjecture, it is what keeps us thinking and making advances.

[Steve]

Well said.

Here's the thing. I've been hearing for years how ozone will help. I have asked professionals on countless occasions to give me an example of just how much it does but I never get a clear, definitive answer.

Does ozone reduce chemical use by 30%....80%?
Will it extend the life of the water by 30%...80%
How will it lower my maintenance and by how much?

I agree that it will assist my sanitizer by making it more effective, but I too am unclear on the real savings. I've heard anything from 10% to 90% from dealers but what I haven't seen is data supporting any of this for spa use.

Here's a question that maybe you can answer for me.
If my cost of ozone is $300 and I need to replace the chip every couple of years in a standard ozonator at a cost of approx $100, that would mean that over a 10 year period my cost of ozone is about $800. Will it save me more than this in relation to it's total cost and by how much?

We also have to realize that we speak of ozone generically here but there are variations of quality systems available that can dramatically effect our generalizations on cost and effectiveness.

To summarize my opinion McD, I respect your opinion but I want to be clear on it also. I agree that ozone can help. How much and at what cost? That, I'm unclear on. Maybe you can provide more details for us to give us a better understanding of its true advantage.

Steve

[Bill_Stevenson]

Let me chime in and add to this interesting exchange.  I own a spa that has both an ozonator and a silver ion exchange system and I follow the Vermonter's water treatment regime.   I am a professional engineer, working in the chemical engineering relm, but I am not a water chemist by any means.

Anyway, ozone is O3 (the 3 should be a sub) and is highly unstable.  O2 is ordinary oxygen and is of course quite stable. So O3 does not last long, a matter of no more than a few seconds.  O3 is harmful to the environment and the amont of O3 that can be generated must be quite small.  Manufacturers of ozonators try to keep the amount of gas generated below governmental regulation limits so as to protect the environment.  

Ozone is the most powerful oxidizer or sanitizer known to man.  It is several orders of magnitude more powerful than dichlor or bromine as an oxidizer.  But only a wee bit of it is being generated in your ozonator, and that wee bit has a short life span of just a few seconds.  So an ozonator kills some bugs and this minimizes the need for dichlor or bromine.  If a bigger, more powerful ozonator could be built perhaps it would generate sufficient O3 to obviate the need for dichlor or bromine.   For obvious reasons, such a device cannot be.  

Now some ozonators are more effective than others.  This has to do with not only how much O3 they generate, but how well that O3 mixes with the water.  Tiny bubbles are better than big bubbles and so on.  So, two people can have different experience with ozonators because they are dealing with different ozonator products.

In conclusion, an ozonator is a nice thing to have.  A good one should kill enough bugs so as to reduce the need for dichlor or bromine a noticeable amount.  It is possible to treat water to kill bugs without an ozonator as well as with one.  Either approach will still require the use of chemicals such as dichlor or bromine simply because the ozonator that is environmentally acceptable is not able to do the whole job by itself.

I hope that helps.

Regards,

Bill

[drewstar]

I'm using Dichlor in my tub. I also have an ozinator connected to my 24X7  circulation pump. It's been in use for about 3 weeks. This system is new to me.

It is my understanding that the ozinator will assist in keeping the water cleaner, and thus reduce the amount of chemicals needed to maintain the water.  I cannot comment if the system is more economical. However, I was drawn to it under the pretense that I could keep my water just as clean (if not cleaner) with less, harsh chemicals in the water.

Question: Should I be keeping my dichlor balanced per the test strip, or reduce it slightly because I have the ozinator? For some reason, I was lead to belive to keep it at the proper levels via the test strip,  and in the long run, I'd need less chemicals to do that. But after reading this thread, should I also be keeping  a lower chlorine level in the water?

As far as TDS, I'm concerned. My tub is about a month old and has seen a large varity of users. I'm getting the alka selzter foaming (disapaites after the jets are turned off) and a bit a cloudy-ness that clearrs up after a few minutes.  

Wondering if I should change the water out?

[Steve]

Chemical companies suggest keeping your chlorine at 1-3 ppm and bromine at 3-5 ppm regardless of whether an ozonator is being used or not. Tis is part of the reason why I don't fully understand the "cost savings" aspect of ozone.

Bill, as a chemical engineer, are you able to answer any of my questions in this thread in regards to the actual cost savings associated with ozone use? Also, can you explain in a bit more detail how ozone acts as a sanitizer in a spa? Thanks much.

Drewstar, do you know what the current TDS level is in your spa?

Steve

[drewstar]

Drewstar, do you know what the current TDS level is in your spa?

Steve

No. I do not know the current TDS level in my spa. The water is clear and has no ordor. The only concern is as I mentioned the fizzy bubbles and cloudniness that occurs when the pumps are running.  

I'm faithful with checking the water  and adding the appropriate chems, without going overboard.  However, I am concerned that I am seeing this only after 4 weeks into a fresh fill up.  But I recognize, since the tub is new, it's seen an unusally high amount of different users wanting to "check it out".  

Perhaps Chas's Law of a water change for all new tubs after a month applies?

I guess I should pop down to the dealer and have em check TDS.  

Steve, my ozinator wasn't  billed as a primary cost savings but as addittinal defense to keep the water clearer. I am under the impression that I may see some savings in chems as I should be using less to maintain the appropriate levels, but will it offset the cost of the Ozinator?  I dunno.......not enough data/experience to answer that.

[HotTubMan]

Chemical companies suggest keeping your chlorine at 1-3 ppm and bromine at 3-5 ppm regardless of whether an ozonator is being used or not. Tis is part of the reason why I don't fully understand the "cost savings" aspect of ozone.

Not an engineer. Didn't even stay at the Holiday Inn.

Steve, the theory is that you can maintain the same PPM of sanitizer with less sanitizer input as the ozone is oxidizing your sanitizer, thereby making it availible to work.

I beleive a dichlor user with ozone would see less variance between free and total chlorine.

For the record, ozone is a chemical, and a very harsh one at that.

[drewstar]

For the record, ozone is a chemical, and a very harsh one at that.

However, isn't  ozone almost imediently broken down in water?  So the trick is to mix  the water and ozone in a compartment seperate from the tub area, allow it to ozidize in the water and then once harmless and has done it's job, allowed to enter the tub?

Or am I all wet?

[Mercure]

Chemical companies suggest keeping your chlorine at 1-3 ppm and bromine at 3-5 ppm regardless of whether an ozonator is being used or not. Tis is part of the reason why I don't fully understand the "cost savings" aspect of ozone.

Steve

I live in Quebec city (Canada). I' am a newbie but from what I have learned so far, changing water here from december to march is, if not impossible, risky and disagreable.

Changing the water after the Chrismas and/or new year party is rather hard because then the average daily maximum* here is -8 Celcius (17,6 fahrenheit)

So a device that can keep the water OK until april have a value and I would be ready to pay for it. It is not just a matter of cost saving.

* in afternoon

[hymbaw]

My understanding of ozone is this -

It is not a sanitizer in the traditional sense. It does not maintain a residual. But, as most bacteria are anerobic (die when contacted by oxygen) it does sanitize some. The most benefit comes from the fact that it constantly(w/ circ pump) oxidizes the halogen sanitizers, it makes them more effective. It is, in effect, a low level, continuous shock. I've been told that once it oxidizes either bacteria or your sanitizer that the resulting off gas is approx. 95% oxygen.

I got these facts straight from Tom Cruise himself!!!!

[HotTubMan]

However, isn't  ozone almost imediently broken down in water?  So the trick is to mix  the water and ozone in a compartment seperate from the tub area, allow it to ozidize in the water and then once harmless and has done it's job, allowed to enter the tub?

Or am I all wet?

Drewstar;

Please dont take what I said as argumentative. I simply take exception to people (dealers mostly) that lead consumers to beleive that an ozonator or salt system results in a "chemical free" environment.

Ozone is a chemical, but you are right it does dissolve in the water quickly. It does not add to TDS directly like a granular oxidizer does.

Using an ozonator, especially on a 24 hour circ pump, will raise pH which will result in more chemicals to fix the pH. It is true also that some granular oxidizers will also change pH (MPS 2.3, Lithchlor 10.. Dichlor and its bromine cousin are pH neutral (7).