Ozonators ... Mineral Sticks ... & Dichlor

[Vinny]

This might go into the "beating a dead horse" pile and I know this won't solve any debate but ... I had some time to think about water chemistry today and came up with some questions/comments. I hear the can opening up again ...

If you chlorinate a tub to an appropriate level (say 3 PPM for this example) and have no bugs alive after chlorinating, you will still have combined chlorine (CC). If ozone is introduced into the tub and runs 22 hours (soak & cleanup/dosing - 2 hours) and you soak at the same time the next day - you should have close to 0 CC before you soak since ozone oxidizes first and there's nothing but CC to oxidize. Do people who run 24/7 ozone have this or reduced CC on a daily basis? Don't you still have to shock the tub on a weekly basis running 24/7 ozone to kill CC? What then is ozone oxidizing and how much is it oxidizing?

It's been said that you can lower chemical usage by using ozone and the mineral stick. Do people actually run at 0.5 PPM chlorine for any length of time without problems? It seems that some people even with ozone and mineral stick run 2-3 PPM chlorine anyway (I do - no mineral stick, 8 hours a day ozone) and that would kill the bugs in the tub anyway. Now if N2 is for helping the water stay clear for a period of time (vacation) without usage - I might agree to that, but for how long? Is this the same for ozone?

For N2, they say to shock with dichlor if the water gets cloudy. If your using 0.5 PPM chlorine as directed why would the water need to be shocked with dichlor - assuming your following directions properly.

If you dosed to 3 PPM chlorine after (or before) use and shocked weekly following direction properly - would you have a problem? My answer would be no - based on my limited hot tub experience and pool experience.

I don't know how this relates to bromine since it seems bromine is needed to be active in the tub at all times to be effective.

As one of my replies in the "bromine and ozonator" thread indicated I really remain skeptical to ozone. But I am also skeptical to mineral sticks as well.

I'm not nearly as educated as most of you are in spas but I am a tech.

I question the validity of ozone and mineral sticks due to the fact they can't be measured. Nothing less than analytical quality analyzers for ozone and N2 tests for MPS. There are guidelines as to how much ozone is needed to be in the water to kill bugs. I have no idea about the silver ions.

To have a dealer sell these to someone and say it works and you use less chemicals - How? I remember reading (I think) that someone here stated that with ozone you use less chlorine for a given volume of water and get the same PPM. Does that mean that if I dose after using I should put in less chlorine (1 -1.5 PPM) and let the ozonator oxidize everything including the live bugs?

My last questions then: What exactly are mineral sticks and ozone doing? I've read that they help keep the tub cleaner, OK but if you are properly maintaining the tub how can you tell? How were tubs maintained years ago before ozone or has ozone always been around?

This is not a cost savings post, this is a "what do they actually do" post.

[JJ]

This is my observations during my vast 8 weeks of experience - including two water changes.

I use ozone, N2, and dichlor.  After I use the tub I raise the Dichlor PPM to 3-5.  If I use the tub within the next 48 hours, the PPM is down to 0.5 when I get in and the water is fine.  The Ozone and N2 seem to keep the water clear that long.  If I go beyond 48 hours without adding more dichlor, I have water problems.

My test strips say that 3-5 ppm FC is the appropriate level for a spa when in use, so what I am surmising is that all ozone and N2 allow you to keep your FC levels lower for a short period of time between uses, and keep you from having to raise the dichlor level higher after each use so that it is in the 3-5 ppm level when you want to use it again.

I expect my dichlor use to increase very shortly, because the delivery crew is coming today to swap out my Vita Joli (250 gal) for my new Vita Nuage (475 gal)!

[Vinny]

This is my observations during my vast 8 weeks of experience - including two water changes.

I use ozone, N2, and dichlor.  After I use the tub I raise the Dichlor PPM to 3-5.  If I use the tub within the next 48 hours, the PPM is down to 0.5 when I get in and the water is fine.  The Ozone and N2 seem to keep the water clear that long.  If I go beyond 48 hours without adding more dichlor, I have water problems.

That's my point - you still are using 3 - 5 PPM and at 48 hours you have 0.5 PPM chlorine (you typed CC, I will assume you meant free chlorine) - no bugs are alive since you never went to 0 chlorine. Unless the fact without ozone your chlorine would be down to 0 in 24 hours.

I have a similar observation!  I can go 2 days also without 24/7 ozone and a N2 stick but I am 0 chlorine (start out around 3 PPM). So far not a problem except when company comes over!

Which is why I posted these questions/comments!

Good luck with your new tub!

[JJ]

What I am assuming is that if I did not have Ozone and N2, I would have to raise the Chlorine level much higher after use, so that the residual free chlorine would be 3-5 ppm when ready for the next use - i.e. more chlorine after use and  higher chlorine level during use.

At least, that's what it said on the the Ozone/N2 koolaid glass that I drank from.

[tonyp]

It's been almost a year now with Nature2 (HS version) and ozone.  I add 2 tbsp of MPS before each use and shock with 3 tbsp of dichlor every Sat. AM.  Sunday I add 2 oz. of Scale and Stain control.  I've changed my water every 4 months.  

If I measure the CL level during the week - it reads zero.  After the MPS, I do get a reading on the bromine indicator.  

Other than high Ph due to my extremely hard water, I have had no water problems at all.  No cloudiness, no scum, no water line!  Sometimes I think that I must be doing something wrong, since I read about all the problems others have.  The one thing that I don't have is teenage girls using the Spa, other than my sons' girlfriends on occasion.

[Vinny]

JJ,

Having a 3-5 PPM is good with or without ozone or N2. As I said, I get to about 3 PPM without using 24/7 ozone and no N2 and my water stays for 2 days.

tonyp,

It sounds like I do your routine but reverse. 2-3 PPM chlorine after I get out and shock on Sat with a chlorine and MPS type shock.

I add Spa Perfect for the scum line. I have 2 boys and have seen what happens when they get in . I had new water in the tub, they got in and boy what a scum line - so I add enzymes weekly to combat that and it seems to work.

The only water problems I've had are a green tint to the water - water company says it's copper and coming from MY pipes and  cloudiness twice from having company over and not cleaning the filter on the next day. Under normal use, even with 5 people in it - no problems what so ever.

[tonyp]

It sounds like I do your routine but reverse. 2-3 PPM chlorine after I get out and shock on Sat with a chlorine and MPS type shock.

Actually the HS and Nature2 literature offer both routines as options.  I just find it easier to add MPS before (or as I get in) rather than DiChlor after, especially in the winter.

[SerjicalStrike]

Remember, you are SANITIZING the spa not STERILIZING it so even at .5ppm, there will be bacteria.  

With Nature2 and ozone, you still need to get the level of chlorine up to 3-5ppm, it will just take less chlorine to do that so they say.   It is a very hard thing to prove.

Basically, if you follow the rule:

3-5ppm after each use and never go more than 4 days without chlorine

you should be all set.

[Vinny]

Remember, you are SANITIZING the spa not STERILIZING it so even at .5ppm, there will be bacteria.  

With Nature2 and ozone, you still need to get the level of chlorine up to 3-5ppm, it will just take less chlorine to do that so they say.   It is a very hard thing to prove.

Basically, if you follow the rule:

3-5ppm after each use and never go more than 4 days without chlorine

you should be all set.

I was under the impression that when you add enough chlorine (or bromine) that you are in effect "sterilizing" the tub to a certain point. IF you remain with residue for any length of time, then you have accomplished this task and got a complete kill of bugs, if it disipates in say a half hour, then you didn't add enough to do the complete job. From what I've read, municipalities chlorinate their drinking water to kill all organisms, the max by law (I believe) is 3 PPM.

Then again I guess we're talking soakin' water not drinkin' water!