out shopping for a spa

[tootall]

Ok now that I have been out shopping for a spa I have widdled down my choices.
Sundance optima
and marqui epic. both because of my large family and I am well over 6'6" the one thing I can say is both seem great my neihbor has a sundance and has had it for a few months and all the stainless steel is well shall I say stained with rust. and his built in pillows are not good any more? is this typical? I realy like the marqui epic wet test was better then the sundance and I like the spa frog system and the ozoneator hope i spelled that right inclued in the price not extra like the sundance. Both have good points and not so good. any opionons are welcome.

[hymbaw]

Sounds like your neighbor's water is out of whack! I have no clue what he could do to ruin his pillows in just a few months. I'd be willing to bet that the stains are from metals in the water collecting there and that the stainless is not rusting. When you do get a spa, dont follow his advice on water treatment

[Mendocino101]

Both have very good reputations ....I think from a Therapy stand point the Epic is a tough match for most spas ....It simply offers some unique ways to get Therapy ....I am a Marquis dealer so to be fair this certainly influences my preferences ....I think if you have wet tested both than go with the one you enjoyed the most in the end that is what really matters ....again both are well respected spas ....

[tootall]

Thanks for the info. on the guy next door he said he just uses bleach in the water . but I am going to keep making a list of pro's and con's on both and get the area i want for my hot tub ready.

[Michelle]

We have had our Epic for about two months now.  Water has been crystal clear.  I have family members who own Vita and some big box spa and they both have problems with their water.  I think it's the users, not the spas though.  The large well is great for the kids for swimming too.  We wet tested many spas and this was by far the best.  Good luck in you search.  There are a lot of good spas out there, make sure you find the one that fits your family the best.
Michelle
PS tell your dopey neighbor to keep the bleach out of his tub.  He has probably voided any warranty.  He must be a real genius.  His initials arent J. A., are they?

[Vinny]

Thanks for the info. on the guy next door he said he just uses bleach in the water . but I am going to keep making a list of pro's and con's on both and get the area i want for my hot tub ready.

This is a perfect case of someone NOT taking care of his water. Bleach has a PH of 13 and added enough times will raise the PH of ANY water to 13. Also as discussed a while ago, bleach has a lot of salt in it - not too good for metal parts and Stainless comes in all varieties - cheap to able to withstand salt water.

I personally am a newbie to spa water chemistry but have a pool for 4 years now and I constantly get remarks from people how clean the pool is. I do use bleach in the pool but check all the water's parameters on a weekly or more basis. I wouldn't use bleach in a spa due to the small volume of water.

Keep up on your water chemistry and your tub should look new for a long time!

[bosco0633]

Bleach, I have never heard of this.  This would be a very affordable remedy.  I am assuming no good to use though.  Any more info

[Vinny]

bosco0633,

Bleach is a type of chlorine and yes I use it in my pool. There was a discussion either here or on Doc's site about using it for a tub as it is indeed cheap. The one factor of bleach is it loses potency really quick in light and heat.

But with the PH of 13, the amount of sodium and impurities in bleach, it was said to be not good for the tub. The sodium level and TDS would get to too high of a level too fast. In a pool because of the volume it's not too bad.

Actually, here in the States, buying dichlor off of Doc's site at 5 lbs for about $25 isn't too bad when you consider you use about 2 - 3  teaspoons at a time.

Hope this helps!

[J._McD]

FWIW, pool water and spa water have nothing in common when it comes to water chemistry, they are like cars and trucks (both common transportation vehicles) or cows and horses (both four legged animals) BUT, when it comes to pool water and spa water, one is HOT and one is NOT.

The quanity of water volumn in a pool is vastly different than the volumn in a spa sometines 1,000 to 1.  10 people in a spa is like 100 people in a pool.  Let me tell you why, pool water is commonly 85° on average compared to 98.6° body temperature and when you enter a pool, your skin and body pores CLOSE.  When you enter a HOT tub at 102°, the body pores open and you excrete more matter into the HOT WATER.

There is a world of difference in pool water chemistry and the chemicals used in pool water vs. Hot Water chemistry and the chemicals used in a Hot Tub.

Try telling this to your "new" customer that has "negotiated" his best deal and dosen't believe or trust a word you tell him because your profit motive, after all he bought a his Hot Tub at a lower price than you first tried to sell it for.

People, especially those aquainted with pools, MUST realize water chemicals are different and thus the reason why they are mentioned and forewarned in the warranty.  True Story, the only time we have ever been sued by a consumer is exactly as mentioned above.  He Poisned his spa with pool chemicals and sued us and the manufacturer for defective goods.  In spite of all of the litigation fees and expenses related to defending such an argument, the "meadiation board" 2 of whom had pools and none of them had a Hot Tub" cut the baby down the middle and awarded him $4,500 and he kept the spa.  The only option at this point is to carry on to the jury $$$$ or settle $.  Yes we did VOID the warranty, and that was substantiated in the process.

This is the epitome of "the customer is always rightl" and the dealer pays the price.

If you use pool chemicals in your spa, STOP.  read the labels, chemical compounds are different for Hot Water and Cold Water.  Do NOT use "Liquid Sanitizers" or generic chemicals like liquid chlorine, bleach, hydrogen peroxide, muriatic acid, vinegar, baking soda  The list goes on and on.

IF it is not a SPA chemical and it does not SAY "SPA' on it WHY do you want to use it?  Because it's cheaper or because it's better? Or is it, you don't know better?  Well then that is YOUR dealers fault for not informing or educating you about the difference.  And, if he did, at least have the chutzpah to admit it.

Ask your dealer about water chemistry, and I am sure 90% of you do, but you 10% now who know better, stop, read, listen, and understand the difference OR accept the fact that you did it to yourself.

Most commonly we see this happen to people who have NO dealer support, big box buyers, dealer's out of business, bought at a show, and they are most commonly "the bargain shopper". And, YES  it can even be your own customer whom you thought knew better because not only was it verbaly said and instructed but in the written recommendations as well.    BUT, we guaranteed his satisfaction

[bosco0633]

well put.   Does anyone know if docs site ships to canada.  I cant seem to find a local dealer for dichlor and MPS.  I would like to try this method but dont want to always be searching for a local supplier.  

Very difficult to find here in Canada.

[Vinny]

The quanity of water volumn in a pool is vastly different than the volumn in a spa sometines 1,000 to 1.  10 people in a spa is like 100 people in a pool.  Let me tell you why, pool water is commonly 85° on average compared to 98.6° body temperature and when you enter a pool, your skin and body pores CLOSE.  When you enter a HOT tub at 102°, the body pores open and you excrete more matter into the HOT WATER.

There is a world of difference in pool water chemistry and the chemicals used in pool water vs. Hot Water chemistry and the chemicals used in a Hot Tub.

Try telling this to your "new" customer that has "negotiated" his best deal and dosen't believe or trust a word you tell him because your profit motive, after all he bought a his Hot Tub at a lower price than you first tried to sell it for.

If you use pool chemicals in your spa, STOP.  read the labels, chemical compounds are different for Hot Water and Cold Water.  Do NOT use "Liquid Sanitizers" or generic chemicals like liquid chlorine, bleach, hydrogen peroxide, muriatic acid, vinegar, baking soda  The list goes on and on.

IF it is not a SPA chemical and it does not SAY "SPA' on it WHY do you want to use it?  Because it's cheaper or because it's better? Or is it, you don't know better?  Well then that is YOUR dealers fault for not informing or educating you about the difference.  And, if he did, at least have the chutzpah to admit it.

J._McD,

I agree that pool chemistry IS different from Spa chemistry to a certain point, BUT are you saying that Alkalinity up that says 100% sodium bicarbonate on the box should be bought instead of 100% sodium bicarbonate on an "Arm and Hammer " box - what's the difference? The same question is asked with Sodium Dichlor for pools vs spas or any pool chemical that is the same both in composition and  strength. I did use borax for PH up ONLY because my PH was at 7.0 or lower and using that alkalinity increaser wasn't changing the PH.  I will also say that people come to rely on the chemical companies to be accurate - not so with HTH - they sell calcium hypochlorite for spa chlorine!

Personally, I DO THINK my dealer is off on their water care idea. I never discussed anything about water care with them as I was looking. She gave me a sheet with add 5 tablespoons of spa calcium increaser and 10 tablespoons of Alkalinity increaser, add N2 cartridge and shock with 3 tablespoons of Enhanced shock once a week - she claims none of her customers have a problem. She admitted to not testing my water as her father drank it (it was in a Poland Spring bottle). I guess luckily I have a test kit and do know how to test water but what happens if my calcium was at 400 PPM and Alkalinity was at 200 from the tap? My water turned green after being in the tub for a day and thankfully I read a post from Stuart about water with metals turning green - I bought some Metal Free and put it in - it's a bluish color now. Her take on it was it's the dye they use to test the tub before it's shipped.

Please don't take this the wrong way as I do believe a good dealer is invaluable. If my dealer is not too good on water chemistry - I can accept that as long as their there for the repair IF I need them. I will recommend them to anyone I know!

I originally was going to support my dealer 100% with chemicals but quite honestly she's too expensive - $23 for a 2 lb bottle of "enhanced shock" (56% dichlor with other ingredients), I can buy a 5 lb bottle of dichlor from Doc for the same price or 2.2 lb bottle of MPS for $13. If I were to use her shock the way I use dichlor - 2-3 teaspoons after exiting and 3 tablespoons once a week, I would possibly go through a bottle every 2 to 3 weeks!

Quite honestly, depending on the cost I don't find some "spa chemicals" too expensive but some of it is WAY too expensive. A $23 bottle of "enhanced shock" IMO would have been bought at $16 - am I looking for the cheapest - NO, but I am looking for the economically feasible.

[Chris_H]

Just because it is the same chemical does not mean it is designed for spa.  Baking soda will not dissolve as quickly as TAP from a pool store when adding to a spa.

[Vinny]

Just because it is the same chemical does not mean it is designed for spa.  Baking soda will not dissolve as quickly as TAP from a pool store when adding to a spa.

Chris,

If an ingredient is 100% then it's the same. If I go on-line and look at alkalinity increaser it's 100% sodium bicarbonate - I believe that's exactly what "Arm and Hammer" or any other brand is. Anything that matches the EXACT composition IS the same. It's been a while since I took chemistry but that's a fact of chemistry. Unless it goes through some molecular change ALL properties are the same. If it was 99% of sodium bicarb and 1% of whatever then yes it's different.

IF the calcium chloride that you use for deicing your sidewalks is EXACT in it's composition as spa calcium increaser than you can use it.

Explain to me why Bioguard dealers (I'm not picking on Bioguard dealers) sell Sodium Dichor at a higher price than Leslie's (probably less chlorine % - 52%) or Doc (he has the highest % of chlorine I've ever seen - 62%). WHY THE HIGHER PRICE? - it's to make the company $$$$ - big $$$$. Do you really believe their product is that superior?

I agree that a chemical can be made strictly for a spa, but think about the fact that if you pick up a chemical - spa, pool or household, it can be the same thing only packaged differently!

[wmccall]

Just because it is the same chemical does not mean it is designed for spa.  Baking soda will not dissolve as quickly as TAP from a pool store when adding to a spa.

My Baking soda almost instantly dissapears. I usually add about an ounce at a time.

[tootall]

Wow what a fountain of knowlege. I see that I can turn here and get some great facts thanks. the next door ding bat was telling me that a pint of bleach is good and that is all one needs. OK I will follow the owners manual. Thanks again for the sugestions.