Bromine float vs. Chlorine

[txwillie]

I have a Marquis with the Spa Frog inline bromine and mineral cartridges. Started out shocking with MPS, but changed to dichlor for shock a few weeks ago. No noticeable difference in the water. Doing a water change this weekend and am thinking about trying strictly dichlor this fill (still using the mineral cartridge).

First I'd like some feedback on switching from the Frog to dichlor.  good, bad or other.

Second, do I need to do anything special when I switch?

Thanks,

txwillie

gonna bump my own post. I still would like some feedback on switching from bromine to dichlor particularly from marquis dealers or owners who are familiar with the Spa Frog

thx

txwillie

[Bill_Stevenson]

"My understanding is because of the composite material used in the shell on a HS spa. I don't believe it has anything to do with the equipment. If so, why wouldn't EVERY manufacturer have this disclaimer? It makes no sense..."

Your understanding is faulty.  I am sure you mean well Steve, and I do not want to get into a pissing contest with you, but you are mistaken and it could cause harm to peoples' spas.  Here is a simple rule that should help to make things clear:  Trichlor is for pools, dichlor is for spas.  You can go to any of the chemical manufacturers and find this same information.  This is NOT an opinion, it is a fact.  Trichlor will dramatically drop the pH of spa water (i.e. it becomes acidic) with the result that it would start to attack the heater, the pump seals and shafts and so forth. As far as I know, the warranty of virtually every manufacturer would be void if trichlor were used.  I have checked the following to ascertain the veracity of this statement:  HotSpring, Caldera, Sundance, Jacuzzi Premium, Marquis, D1.  All are the same.


"I 110% respectfully disagree with this comment based on years of experience in this industry. I use a Bromine concentrate and a teaspoon of this product will take my bromine from 1 to 4ppm immediately in a 400 gallon spa."

I certainly respect your experience and suggest that perhaps you misunderstood what I said.  Bromine is not as powerful as chlorine as a sanitizer.  It takes more bromine to do the job that is all.  In fact 1-3 ppm of free chlorine is probably similar in effectiveness to 3-5 ppm of bromine.  Please note that I have never said that bromine is not a good option.  I prefer dichlor, but think bromine is a perfectly fine alternative for spas.  By the way, I am a chemical engineer.

Regards,

Bill

[Bill_Stevenson]

gonna bump my own post. I still would like some feedback on switching from bromine to dichlor particularly from marquis dealers or owners who are familiar with the Spa Frog

thx

txwillie

There is no real difference in compatibility for dichlor or bromine when used with a Spa Frog.  You would use less dichlor (0.5 to 1 ppm) vs bromine (1-2 ppm).  I think these values are correct.  Check your owner's manual or go the the Spa Frog web site for confirmation.  Also, you should not use MPS with the Spa Frog, I believe the manufacturer warns against doing so.  

Regards,

Bill

[txwillie]

There is no real difference in compatibility for dichlor or bromine when used with a Spa Frog.  You would use less dichlor (0.5 to 1 ppm) vs bromine (1-2 ppm).  I think these values are correct.  Check your owner's manual or go the the Spa Frog web site for confirmation.  Also, you should not use MPS with the Spa Frog, I believe the manufacturer warns against doing so.  

Regards,

Bill

Are you sure that MPS is not compatible with the Spa Frog? The chems that the dealer gave me with the tub included MPS shock, and most folks I've spoken with recommend MPS shock with bromine. I started shocking with dichlor based on info I've gleaned from this site. BTW I can't find anything on the King Technology site that says what type of shock to use.

txwillie

[txwillie]

mendo101, where are you?

[Steve]

author=Bill_Stevenson link=board=wtb-hottub;num=1117120664;start=15#16 date=05/27/05 at 10:39:52Your understanding is faulty.  I am sure you mean well Steve, and I do not want to get into a pissing contest with you, but you are mistaken and it could cause harm to peoples' spas.  Here is a simple rule that should help to make things clear:  Trichlor is for pools, dichlor is for spas.  You can go to any of the chemical manufacturers and find this same information.  This is NOT an opinion, it is a fact.  Trichlor will dramatically drop the pH of spa water (i.e. it becomes acidic) with the result that it would start to attack the heater, the pump seals and shafts and so forth. As far as I know, the warranty of virtually every manufacturer would be void if trichlor were used.  I have checked the following to ascertain the veracity of this statement:  HotSpring, Caldera, Sundance, Jacuzzi Premium, Marquis, D1.  All are the same.

This discussion has nothing to do with a pissing contest Bill and I do respect and I am aware of your position. I find this debate very enlightning myself! That said, chlorine pucks have been used for many years in spas so you've got your work cut out for you as a crusader against it! As a student of a more "hands on" approach with 10's of thousands of water analysis done, I have seen chlorine pucks (trichlor) work extremely well in a spa application without the results you are describing. Though these pucks do have the result of a low pH, we are talking about 400+ gallons of water and the process for balancing water remains the same.

I was sadly unaware that these other companies you have mentioned also have this disclaimer in their warranty and at this point, I will take your word on it. I believe it's a real shame and I guess it is the difference between a warranty and a guarantee. In the two major manufacturers I have had the pleasure of working for, neither would prevent warranty work from being paid out due to the use of chlorine pucks. Then again, both of these companies gave their customers a guarantee and not a warranty with these sorts of loopholes designed to protect the manufacturer instead of the end user. That being the case, if these same owners of these brands neglect their alkalinity (regardless of the sanitizer used) and it drops off resulting in very low pH and acidic water, will these same manufacturers provide warranty on the resulting damage created by this? If so, what is the difference in neglect between these two scenarios we are speaking of?

Steve

[Bill_Stevenson]

Steve,

Low pH is a problem for any spa, and low pH can result from other means than using the wrong sanitizer.  From a chemistry perspective it matters not how the acid was formed.  The consequences to the equipment would also be the same.  Heaters, pump shafts and bearings all corrode, seals fail.  

Your discussion of warranty vs. guarantee is neither here nor there, but it should be taken up with legal not engineering ;-) .  Responsible equipment manufacturers try very hard to define the proper parameters for the safe and effective use of their products.  All equipment has important limitations of use.

You mention the need to control total alkalinity so as to stabilize pH.  We agree on that point.  You argue that this can be done in a 400 gallon spa using trichlor.  Perhaps, I would not know because I have never tried it.  You see I read the owners manual that came with my spa, which specifically cautioned against it.  Perhaps your owner's manual has a similar precaution?  I assume that it would.  Beyond that point, however, there is also the issue of the relatively large amount of chemical would be needed to offset the very acidic trichlor.  This would lead to accelerated scale build up, and faster total dissolved solids buildup, which in turn would result in a requirement for more frequent water changes.  

What good end comes from such an approach?  I think the regime you outlined in a similar thread earlier this week involving bromine is much better and much more responsible.  You are not doing any person seeking advice a favor by encouraging them to do something that is not only wrong according to every manufacturer of both spas and chemicals that I can find, but very well could cause grave damage to their spa.  There are plenty of good options, why steer people to a bad one?

Regards,

Bill  

[Bill_Stevenson]

"Are you sure that MPS is not compatible with the Spa Frog? The chems that the dealer gave me with the tub included MPS shock, and most folks I've spoken with recommend MPS shock with bromine. I started shocking with dichlor based on info I've gleaned from this site. BTW I can't find anything on the King Technology site that says what type of shock to use."


This is from www.rhtubs.com:

"Q: Can I use SPA FROG with potassium monopersulfate only?
A: No. This can create an unsafe spa as there is no EPA approved sanitizer residual in the spa. A spa with SPA FROG should maintain a 0.5 - 1 ppm of chlorine or 1 - 2 ppm bromine."

Regards,

Bill

[bosco0633]

hey Bill,

in my area in Ontario Canada Trichlor is used for chlorine for tubs.  This is what the arctic chemicals are right from the manufacturer.  I went to authorized Sundance, jacuzzi, beachcomber, catalina, arctic, canspas, hydropools, and they all sell trichlor.  I also called an LA spas dealer and he said trichlor as well is the product that they sell.  

I find it strange that it is different like this from Canada to the US.  So although you say that dichlor is for spas and trichlor is for pools, I beg to differ from my research here in Canada.  Im not trying to start anything, I just want to bring it to your attention that most chlorines for spa useage is trichlor.

[txwillie]

"Are you sure that MPS is not compatible with the Spa Frog? The chems that the dealer gave me with the tub included MPS shock, and most folks I've spoken with recommend MPS shock with bromine. I started shocking with dichlor based on info I've gleaned from this site. BTW I can't find anything on the King Technology site that says what type of shock to use."


This is from www.rhtubs.com:
 
"Q: Can I use SPA FROG with potassium monopersulfate only?
A: No. This can create an unsafe spa as there is no EPA approved sanitizer residual in the spa. A spa with SPA FROG should maintain a 0.5 - 1 ppm of chlorine or 1 - 2 ppm bromine."

Regards,

Bill

What you reference is not the same system as I have. The FAQ you quoted from Doc's site is for the mineral cartridge only that you put in the filter core. I have the in-line system with two cartridges one for bromine, one for minerals.  

Here is a more complete quote from their FAQ's

Q: Can I use SPA FROG alone or do I need another form of chlorination?
A:SPA FROG is to be used with a small amount of chlorine (0.5 - 1 ppm) or bromine (1 - 2 ppm). SPA FROG also works with ozonators.

Q: Can I use SPA FROG with potassium monopersulfate only?
A: No. This can create an unsafe spa as there is no EPA approved sanitizer residual in the spa. A spa with SPA FROG should maintain a 0.5 - 1 ppm of chlorine or 1 - 2 ppm bromine.

The key word here is can I use the frog with MPS ONLY. It does not say that you can't shock with MPS.

txwilllie

[Steve]

Steve,

Low pH is a problem for any spa, and low pH can result from other means than using the wrong sanitizer.  From a chemistry perspective it matters not how the acid was formed.  The consequences to the equipment would also be the same.  Heaters, pump shafts and bearings all corrode, seals fail.

Agreed, which lead me to the question: "if these same owners of these brands neglect their alkalinity (regardless of the sanitizer used) and it drops off resulting in very low pH and acidic water, will these same manufacturers provide warranty on the resulting damage created by this? If so, what is the difference in neglect between these two scenarios we are speaking of?"
I understand you are not the manufacturer but I see this as a substantial "out" for manufacturers as that loophole widens.

Your discussion of warranty vs. guarantee is neither here nor there, but it should be taken up with legal not engineering ;-) .

I do agree with what you are saying Bill. I don't necessarily promote a chlorine puck system but I do know thousands of people using that system that enjoy great results with it. I guess my point is that is can be done though many (south of the boarder) don't agree with it.

I'm still shocked though at the manufacturers. Good exchange Bill...

Steve

[Bill_Stevenson]

ppm bromine.

"The key word here is can I use the frog with MPS ONLY. It does not say that you can't shock with MPS."

I see what you are saying, I missed the word "only" and now think I comprehend your question fully.  My take on it seems to agree with yours, you certainly could shock with MPS as long as you do not use MPS as your only form of sanitizing.  

MPS "only" is not a good choice to use regardless of the use of a Spa Frog.  As a shock it is fine or if it is used daily, then use dichlor shock once a week, but don't rely on MPS alone.  You are also right that bromine users tend to like MPS for shock and that is ok too, as far as I know.  Dichlor is also used for shock with bromine.  I have no idea if one is better than the other in this situation, but do know that dichlor and bromine can react dangerously together in dry form.  So if you have both be careful how they are stored and handled.  

Personally, having researched spa water treatment quite a bit, and knowing what I know about chemistry (but by the way, I am not a water chemist or a microbiologist) I am convinced that the very best option is dichlor.  It is also the cheapest, and it is extremely easy to use and forgiving.  The Vermonter is the guy I trust and follow on this one.  

Regards,

Bill  

[Bill_Stevenson]

hey Bill,

in my area in Ontario Canada Trichlor is used for chlorine for tubs.  This is what the arctic chemicals are right from the manufacturer.  I went to authorized Sundance, jacuzzi, beachcomber, catalina, arctic, canspas, hydropools, and they all sell trichlor.  I also called an LA spas dealer and he said trichlor as well is the product that they sell.  

I find it strange that it is different like this from Canada to the US.  So although you say that dichlor is for spas and trichlor is for pools, I beg to differ from my research here in Canada.  Im not trying to start anything, I just want to bring it to your attention that most chlorines for spa useage is trichlor.

That is very interesting.  As far as I know chemistry is identical across all borders.  I am going to look, but I am pretty sure one of my books on pools and spas was published in Canada.  I will report back.

Regards,

Bill

[zzaphod42]

I’m reluctant to chime in but can’t help it (its who I am). I don't see this as a "loophole" in the warranty. Why should a manufacturer cover damage to a spa due to uncontrolled water chemistry by the owner? That would be neglect just as it would be if I didn't maintain the oil in my car and had engine problems. You can find a manufacturer warranty saying they will not honor damage due to water chemistry except with their heater as they've built the heater to withstand such neglect. They haven't built the rest of the spa to withstand it (which obviously takes a good deal of neglect/time to occur) so why should they honor such damage??

It's a matter of trust.

In my case, Beachcomber trusts me to properly teach my customers how to care for their tub. I trust my customers, due in part to good advice, to stay loyal and buy their product from me. And the customer trusts Beachcomber and myself to be there for any issues that may arise. All around it's a win-win relationship.

Does it cost Beachcomber more not to exclude improper water care from the warranty - of course it does. Does the customer feel better, and provide more referrals in the long run. I certainly hope so!

Besides, if the customer refuses to properly care for their tub, they will be paying for it after the warranty is up anyway.

[Steve]

I totally agree with you  zzaphod42 and I wish more manufactuers would see it this way. Instead, they find all the loopholes possible to protect themselves and not their customers and it pisses me off!

I've never understood how a manufacturer can claim foul when the dealer hasn't done their job or has a history of watercare analysis to prove it. How do you prove neglect without it? It's a grey area and I'm glad I haven't worked for a company that needs to bring this up to someone who just spent $10,000 on a new spa 8 months ago. Guranteed they're not coming back to my store if that was the case!

Kudos to any dealer that takes care of their customers during the warranty period without trying to find ways to not cover the cost. If you think that finding these loopholes promotes long term relationships and referrals, you are dead wrong!

Steve