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Author Topic: questions about dichlor and vermont method  (Read 7247 times)

bosco0633

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questions about dichlor and vermont method
« on: May 26, 2005, 04:23:29 pm »
confused time.

Do you use dichlor by itself for both daily use and shock.  I just read Vermont method from Rhtubs and it is very informative, but I find it a little over my head.

For those that use dichlor I understand that I have to find an amount to have a free chlorine base of min 2ppm.  what is a free chlorine base compared to combined base.

Also I understand from Vermont method that I use approx 7 times the daily dosage for shock once a week.

Now, if I understand correctly which I most likely dont  I use dichlor every day (optimal) or after each use.  I use the proper amount to bring my chlorine reading to 2ppm.  Can I go in tub right after or do I have to do after I use tub?

Next once a week I add my 7x dichlor for shock, I assume this is not safe to go in at this time.  How long of a wait before reading goes back down to 2ppm.

Ok, now, dichlor is not as acidic as trichlor.  So does this mean that i dont have to play with ph or alkalinity.  Or do I still add ph up and down and alk products?

Last but not least my tub is going to have an ozone with it.  So is this enough or do I have to run this nature two thing.  I have no clue how it works, i just understand it is a device that sits in the filter and releases crystals or something to sanatize.  Does this have to be used or can you opt not to use it.  Also can I get it in Canada.

I think thats it.  I really would like to give dichlor a fair shake but seem very confused.  I have read many articles and I still cant get past the confusion.  I guess it will be a little different when I actually have the tub here.  I just want to make sure that I understand, as my local dealer knows nothing about dichlor.

please help clarify things for me.

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questions about dichlor and vermont method
« on: May 26, 2005, 04:23:29 pm »

Cgar

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Re: questions about dichlor and vermont method
« Reply #1 on: May 26, 2005, 07:01:20 pm »
I would hope that your dealer would provide you with a water care procedure when your tub is delivered.  We laminate ours and review it as part of the orientation process during delivery.

Our recommendation with Di-chlor is to use approximately one teaspoon per adult after each use (after establishing an initial base when filling the but initially).  We recommend using a non-chlorine based shock as the 7x normal amount of di-chlor can be quite agressive when it comes to the springs in pop-up speakers, etc.  The only other chemical that you should require is a stain and scale prevention product that should be added weekly.  pH and alkalinity should remain stable as long as you maintain even a small residual level of di-chlor in the water.  The only time I've seen the pH take a nose dive is when the di-chlor level was at 0 for a period of 8 hours or more.

Feel free to PM me for a Canadian perspective on all of this bosco.  Our store is located in London, Ontario.

Dr. Spa™ Ret.

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Re: questions about dichlor and vermont method
« Reply #2 on: May 26, 2005, 07:24:47 pm »
I must have read the part in parenthesis in the second paragraph 6 times, and I still can figure out what the heck my northern neighbors are doing!

You're filliing WHAT with WHAT???????????

I'm not sure it would even  be legal in these here parts.
If you can't sell it on eBay, it may not even qualify as landfill.

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TubbinSoon, now we be tubbin

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Re: questions about dichlor and vermont method
« Reply #3 on: May 26, 2005, 09:14:09 pm »
Several dealers in my area only use Bromine. Don't carry dichlor and/or don't  have any advice on using it.

Vinny

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Re: questions about dichlor and vermont method
« Reply #4 on: May 26, 2005, 10:24:19 pm »
I think what is being forgotten here is it's 7x (in my pool I usually use 10 x - easier #'s) the COMBINED chlorine (CC) - not total chlorine (TC). Vermonter said use TC for ease of numbers (or at least I think that's what he said).

Remember that bromine does need to be shocked too but I guess that bromine users use non chlorine shock (MPS) - what happened in the days before MPS?

If you have a reading of .5 PPM of CC, the amount needed is 3.5 PPM of free chlorine  (FC) to get the chloramines to break. so that might be 2 Tablespoons of dichlor. but if you already have 2 PPM  FC then all you need is 1.5 PPM more.

Vermonter also likes the idea of super chlorinating the tub every so often and to me it makes sense to have a little more sanitizer in the tub every so often.


bosco,

I did order a bottle of MPS (non chlorine shock) for shocking and plan on alternating between dichlor and MPs to "shock".

Vermonter's way is to sanitize the tub after you get out with the thought that you're not sitting in chlorine the next time you use the tub - it is my understanding that chlorine dissipates quickly in warm water.  How quickly? - I don't know that yet.

Dichlor has a PH of 6.7 to 7.0 (I believe) so yes your Alk and PH reading should stay more stable than adding something with a PH of 3.6 (Trichlor) or 13 (Liquid chlorine) - you still have to monitor them but you shouldn't need to adjust them as often ( I don't know the frequency).

People run pools here in the States with chlorine only (I do) and it does a great job. The ozone in tubs may help (this has been debated a number of times on this and Doc's board) and Nature 2 is a supplement to both chlorine and ozone - again this has been debated.

I guess the question is - as you gain experience - what works (or you believe to work) for you. I am of the belief due to the limited experience that I've had with my pool (no hot water yet) that ozone and Nature 2 are not needed at all. But I am getting a tub with ozone to see if it does do anything as people stated - I can be wrong!

I hope this helps to explain some things!

Vinny
« Last Edit: May 26, 2005, 10:26:17 pm by Vinny »

Steve

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Re: questions about dichlor and vermont method
« Reply #5 on: May 26, 2005, 11:57:38 pm »
Quote
I would hope that your dealer would provide you with a water care procedure when your tub is delivered.  We laminate ours and review it as part of the orientation process during delivery.


That's the way it should be done! Kudo's to you!

Quote
pH and alkalinity should remain stable as long as you maintain even a small residual level of di-chlor in the water.  The only time I've seen the pH take a nose dive is when the di-chlor level was at 0 for a period of 8 hours or more.


Hold the phone Cgar... In the 10's of thousands of water tests I've done, I have never made that relation in any way. The two have nothing to do with each other. A zero Chlorine reading will not effect pH that way at all. The only reading that will cause pH to drop is low alkalinity. The products we add to water have varying pH readings and can slightly effect pH innitially but I'll stand on my head and sing opera to disporove your findings. ;D

Steve


Tman122

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Re: questions about dichlor and vermont method
« Reply #6 on: May 27, 2005, 05:53:20 am »
The main thing I have found is to not panic. Once your water has been adjusted to the proper balance. TA 80-120 and PH 7.2-7.8 And this adjustment could take a week or so but again don't panic, just make sure to add some dichlor initialy while it's heating and after use. 1/2 teaspoon per person works for me after use if I plan on using it the next day or so. But if I plan on not using it for a day or 2 or 3 I usually dump in a tablespoon this brings my level to 7PPM in a 400 gallom tub. By the next day it is 3-4 and the day after 1-2 and after that .5 for a day and then unmeasurable for a while but with N2 and O3 I can go a while more before adding again if I don't soak. Obviously if I soak the next day or so then 1/2 teaspoon per person added after use is very simple. This routine drives my TA and PH down ever so slightly during the 3-4 months I like to keep my water (because of the cyunaric acid byproduct of dichlor use) so a couple ounces of baking soda does the trick once or twice in 3-4 months. Nothing else for me.  As far a shock if I only use my tub once or twice a week I shock every third week but if it is used more or we have a party with alot of people I will shock it. My water tells me when it needs a shock by how the bubbles react and that is something you will learn.
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Cgar

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Re: questions about dichlor and vermont method
« Reply #7 on: May 27, 2005, 09:21:13 am »
Quote
I must have read the part in parenthesis in the second paragraph 6 times, and I still can figure out what the heck my northern neighbors are doing!

You're filliing WHAT with WHAT???????????


Ya, the word 'but' is Canadian-speak for 'tub'... at least in this case.  Pardon the typing error.   ;D

As for Steve standing on his head and singing opera... that I'd like to see.  I guess that part of my response wasn't clear either.  I was definitely not trying to say that the lack of di-chlor in the water caused the pH to drop.  What I meant was that in my limited experience with di-chlor, I've seen the pH stay extremely stable while a proper di-chlor level was maintained.  However, if the spa was used without any di-chlor left in the water the pH was more likely to wander.  Does that make any more sense or will you be standing on your head now Steve?   ;D

bosco0633

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Re: questions about dichlor and vermont method
« Reply #8 on: May 27, 2005, 09:50:56 am »
wow, I feel like an idiot.  I just really want to grasp this water chemistry thing before my tub arrives.

The very last thing that I want to have happen is that I get sick or rashes while in the tub.  I am just trying to learn and I really appreciate all of your input.  

I have called around my local area and nobody has dichlor to use.  It looks for sake of convienance that I will be trying bromine.  I dont want to use the trichlor so my options are limited.

Thanks again.

fletch49

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Re: questions about dichlor and vermont method
« Reply #9 on: May 27, 2005, 11:14:20 am »
Bosco - For what ever reason, it's difficult to find dichlor in our area. I have even looked around the GTA and found few places. Furthermore, your dealer will only support you when you use Bromine. When they set up the tub, they will provide you with a bromine starter kit, so I would suggest atleast trying that...especially if you will be looking for dealer support.

As well, they will provide you with a disposable 1 micron filter (www.micropure.ca), and with this filter you cannot use liquid additives like metal out or enzymes as it will clog the filter.  

I think you'll find that the system your AS dealer has in place works well, and with minimal effort.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2005, 11:15:10 am by Spazz »

Bill_Stevenson

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Re: questions about dichlor and vermont method
« Reply #10 on: May 27, 2005, 11:39:27 am »
Quote
confused time.

"Do you use dichlor by itself for both daily use and shock.  I just read Vermont method from Rhtubs and it is very informative, but I find it a little over my head."

Yes you can use dichlor for both daily treatment and for shock once per week.

"For those that use dichlor I understand that I have to find an amount to have a free chlorine base of min 2ppm.  what is a free chlorine base compared to combined base."

Free chlorine is what you get when you first add dichlor to the spa.  As the chlorine combines or reacts with the bacteria and so on it forms chloramines - in other words it chemically combines with the germs you are trying to kill.  So after a week of happy tubbing you will have some free chlorine and some combined chlorine.  When you shock you are adding enough extra chemical of oxidize - that is burn up - the chloramines.  In other words they go away kind of like using up the gas in your car as you drive.

"Also I understand from Vermont method that I use approx 7 times the daily dosage for shock once a week."

Yes, although in his more detailed information he admits that this is a very conservative approach.  You probably could get by with 4 or 5 times the daily dose for the once a week shock.

>Now, if I understand correctly which I most likely dont  I use dichlor every day (optimal) or after each use.  I use the proper amount to bring my chlorine reading to 2ppm.  Can I go in tub right after or do I have to do after I use tub?<

You can go in the tub right away with 2 ppm of free chlorine.

>Next once a week I add my 7x dichlor for shock, I assume this is not safe to go in at this time.  How long of a wait before reading goes back down to 2ppm.<

You would need to test your water to learn how long it would take.  Chlorine does not have a long life in hot water.  I keep my water at 98 degrees F, and find that 24 hours after shocking, the chlorine level is 3 ppm or so and I can and do go in.

>Ok, now, dichlor is not as acidic as trichlor.  So does this mean that i dont have to play with ph or alkalinity.  Or do I still add ph up and down and alk products?<

Actually total alkalinity is extremely important and I recommend that you add the total alkalinity as the first step in your water treatment regime.  Doing so stabilizes pH and makes your life much easier.  I recommend 120 to 150 ppm of total alkalinity, although some recommend 80 to 120.  The trade off is that the higher you go the more scale you will form and the more often you will need to change your water.  On the other hand, if total alkalinity is kept on the high side the water is much more stable and easier to keep in the proper range.  

>Last but not least my tub is going to have an ozone with it.  So is this enough or do I have to run this nature two thing.  I have no clue how it works, i just understand it is a device that sits in the filter and releases crystals or something to sanatize.  Does this have to be used or can you opt not to use it.  Also can I get it in Canada.<

Nature 2 is a silver ion exchange system.  It is compatible with dichlor but not with bromine.  Using it is an excellent idea as it will reduce the amount of dichlor that you need to sanitize your water.  Ozone is a very powerful oxidizer that will help to keep your chloramines down and again this will help to reduce the amount of dichlor that you would need to add.  Ozone is compatible with bromine if you decide to go that way.

"I think thats it.  I really would like to give dichlor a fair shake but seem very confused.  I have read many articles and I still cant get past the confusion.  I guess it will be a little different when I actually have the tub here.  I just want to make sure that I understand, as my local dealer knows nothing about dichlor."

Bromine is more expensive and does not need to be added daily so most dealers tend to recommend it.  They are in business to make money after all and don't want to scare potential customers out the door by confusing them. In reality, dichlor is not confusing or hard to use.   I had my dealer tell me they don't get involved with dichlor, so I went to an independent pool and spa chemical store, these are ubiquitous.

Here is a brief overview of the Vermonter's approach:
1.  Fill the tub with water and add total alkalinity to 120 + ppm.
2.  Add dichlor to reach 2 ppm
3.  Check pH and adjust if necessary

Play in your hot tub
1. After each use add dichlor to 2 ppm (this varies but for a typical 400 to 500 gallon tub this works out to perhaps 0.5 tps, to 0.75 tps, per person per use).
2. Once a week, shock (this varies but 2 - 3 TBS is typical)
3. Periodically check total alkalinity and ph and chlorine.  the period will vary depending on usage, water temperature, number of people using it, and so on.  For a new spa this might be daily, but after you get a handle on the thing it might be once a week, or even once every 2 or 3 weeks.

It really is not hard.

Regards,

Bill

Lori

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Re: questions about dichlor and vermont method
« Reply #11 on: May 27, 2005, 12:53:13 pm »
Quote
Furthermore, your dealer will only support you when you use Bromine. When they set up the tub, they will provide you with a bromine starter kit, so I would suggest atleast trying that...especially if you will be looking for dealer support.

 


Excuse me?  Am I mis-reading this, or are you trying to say that the dealer will not support any warranty repairs, or repairs in the future for that matter, if they use something other than bromine?   :-/

Sorry, but if that were the case, I wouldn't buy from that dealer!  Just an opinion!
Oklahoma Vanguard owner-don't hold that against me

bosco0633

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Re: questions about dichlor and vermont method
« Reply #12 on: May 27, 2005, 02:41:36 pm »
hey Bill,

thanks for the great reply, that really clears things up for me.  Your simplified what to do at the end was exactly what I was looking for.

Lori, Spazz is right.  Our dealer provides support but strongly encourages the use of bromine.  Arctic pure makes both bromine and chlorine, which is trichlor.  I think what he meant was that they will better be able to assist with water quality and so forth with the bromine.  

the dealer is actually really good so far.  Now if I could just get my tub, id be set.

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Re: questions about dichlor and vermont method
« Reply #13 on: May 28, 2005, 08:43:29 am »
Bosco,

Ok, that makes sense!  I just mis-read!

Thanks for clarifying it!

Be patient, and relax!  I was concerned before I got my tub, but it has been fairly easy to maintain!  There is a learning curve, don't get me wrong, but you can do it!  If I can, anyone can!  Just ask GeorgiaPeach!  ;)

Good luck!
Oklahoma Vanguard owner-don't hold that against me

fletch49

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Re: questions about dichlor and vermont method
« Reply #14 on: May 28, 2005, 10:03:35 am »
Quote
Bosco,

Ok, that makes sense!  I just mis-read!

Thanks for clarifying it!

Be patient, and relax!  I was concerned before I got my tub, but it has been fairly easy to maintain!  There is a learning curve, don't get me wrong, but you can do it!  If I can, anyone can!  Just ask GeorgiaPeach!  ;)

Good luck!


Lori - I would have read it the same way  ???.  I guess my point was that Bosco's dealer would be more receptive to him if he sticks with AS line of chemicals...not knowing(at the time) that Arctic Spa sells chlorine Sanitizer.  Before the spa was delivered, I looked into both Bromine and Chlorine, but was told by my salesguy that they didn't sell chlorine based sanitizers. I think he should have said, that they don't sell it it their store, but it's available!


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Re: questions about dichlor and vermont method
« Reply #14 on: May 28, 2005, 10:03:35 am »

 

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