Ozone use in an indoor spa

[johnvb]

My spa room is now 14' x 12' (was 12' x 12' but I bumped out one of the walls) That's 168 sq. ft. x .5 cfm which would be 84 cfms. Which is basically the size of one of those fairly quiet fart fans for small baths.

I could use one of these by itself during non-use, and along with a heat recovery ventilator unit, rated at 120 cfms when we are using the spa.

I'll have to do more research, I don't think bath fans are rated for continuous "on" duty.

[Dr. Spa™ Ret.]

"I see you waited for me to go to bed last night to post your response."

Yes, you are correct, I did intentionally wait 1-1/2 hour after you posted, till 9:43pm my time, to make my post, knowing full well you would snoring away........ guilty as charged.

"I don't believe it is beneficial for you to pontificate what you know or don't know.  You lost all credibility with me when you posted this....."

So if I lost credibility with you back in Aug of last year, why are you now, 8 month later, carrying on with this?

I have, since that post of last year (2 or 3 months ago in fact), been corrected and admitted to that fact that yes, ozone is in fact a sanitizer. HOWEVER, just like chlorine ozone must first oxidize anything in the water BEFORE it can begin sanitizing. It is unlikely that there will ever be enough ozone in a spa to completely oxidize the organic matter and will therefore never have a chance to begin sanitizing

" Now, don't go getting made at me and sending me any e-mails again threatening to spank me."

is this a punishment you feel is necessary?

"It is just that you see the glass half empty and I see it half full, or visa versa if you may."

As I previously explained, all I see is a half a glass of water.  

"Those who hold themselves out to be doctors are usually practicing something.  They are usually the first to admit to the truth, they don't know it all, nor do I"

Are you now attacking my nome de plume? Will it be my grammar and/or spelling next?

"Back to the issue at hand.  Johnvb has a legitimate question he would like some input on."

Gee, and I thought all I initially did was to give Johnvb my input.

"He has been elsewhere and maybe has received some mis-information"

Well he definitely receive some of that here.

"maybe even from your website that could be erroneous and he wants a differing point of view."

or perhaps you've supplied mis-information in a private email to him (HEY! If you want to start making blind accusations, lets go............... spanking on it's way   )  

"You even say it is multiple times over in your profit making enterprise that sells ozonators."

OH MY GOD, please forgive me for having a job and trying to make an honest and ethical living. I'll also inform my employees that they to should be working for free and living on the streets

"Just because you can leave little tracks that lead to your archives,"

Little? RATS, I gotta work on that. I was hoping for tracks big as big foot.

"it does not mean it is the written word of the gospel, as written by Dr. Spa."

Does my opinion, my posts, really carry that much weight? WOW! Very cool. I'd like to thank my mom, my business partner, my second grade teacher Miss Gramm, and of course the academy.

"You certainly do try to do good work, you certainly keep this world in some form of balance while trying to keep us all in our place."

DUDE! I simply posted of a couple of very negative experiences from a couple of customers........ That nerve is quite tender eh?

" Maybe we should take this over to see JA and get his point of view."

hahahahahahaha, yeah, please, feed the side show circus.

"Now, can I order 10 of those $5.00 bulbs or not?

Since it's now apparent you either haven't read my posts in their entirety, I'll copy and paste what I said before......... I'll make it so it's a bit easier to read

[glb]unfortunately though, I don't manufacture this particular product and am forced to pay whatever the manufacturer feels they can get.[/glb]

[Vinny]

Here's the FDA site about ozone that was posted at Doc's site:
    http://www.epa.gov/safewater/mdbp/alternative_disinfectants_guidance.pdf

Please remember when reading this - it's about drinking water not spa water.

If I remember correctly, Chapter 3 is about ozone.

To johnvb,

Ozone is not the end all to sanitation. I've had a pool now for 4 years and use chlorine to sanitize my pool. Hot tubs are a little different as chlorine is dissipated by the heat.

People have said on these forums that yes ozone helps but some have also said that they have had things deteriorate and they have attributed it to the ozone off gassing in their spa.

I personally wouldn't use ozone in an enclosed room. Although it comes from a spa - ozone is ozone and if your spa doesn't "use" (for the lack of a better term) the ozone - it has to go somewhere - it may be as bad as the devices that the FDA has an alert on.

Just my 2 cents!

Vinny

[johnvb]

Thanks Vinny
I've been a pool owner for over 20 years, but am totally clueless when it comes to spas. I’m hoping there are more similarities than differences when it comes to chemical maintenance between the two. Guess I will find out soon enough.

It would be nice if there were some kind of indicator to place in the room, to keep off-gassing in check (a canary in a coal mine, so to speak).

I downloaded the manual for my tub from Sundance, there is absolutely no warnings concerning indoor spas and ozone, or any other off-gassing to that matter, only a recommendation of ventilation for moisture buildup reasons.

You would think in the litigious world we live in, Sundance would be covering their a$$ with some sort of disclaimer regarding this issue in their literature, if the danger was so great.

[J._McD]

[quote author=johnvb

You would think in the litigious world we live in, Sundance would be covering their a$$ with some sort of disclaimer regarding this issue in their literature, if the danger was so great.
[/quote]

Yes they would, and your question hits the nail right on the head.

Let me first say, I do not want to bring any extremist out of the wood work, and I will not respond to verbal retaliation after this post, but if I may, I would like to make a few points.

Regarding the air mass in the room and how it relates to 1) humidity, or 2) off-gassing of chemicals or ozone, install an exhaust fan and wire it with a humidistat switch.  It will then be triggered on when the level of humidity triggers it to be on, most likely when the cover is open, and turns it off automatically.  Nutone makes the exhaust fan and just install it with the humidistat switch.

Regarding this endless discussion of "off-gassing" whether it be chemicals, ozone or flatulence there are elements in our everyday air that we do not necessarily want to inhale volumns of.  I, personally think and believe, and I do not wish to invite opposing opinions, that there is DANGER in our everyday atmospheric air we could be talking about.

However, regading the subject of ozone, it is created from oxygyn molecules in the air, O2.  The O2 molecules are so to speak sliced and diced by the ultraviolet light of the sun or the electrical discharge of lightning that form our ozone layer in the upper atmosphere.  

UV ozonators and Corona Discharge ozonators mimic the sun and lightning and split O2 molecules that combine and create O3 molecules that are refered to as active oxygen or ozone, O3.

Once O3 is created, we want to smash it into the tinyest, water soluable air bubbles to interact with contaminants in the water and they are minerals, nutrients, bacteria and viruses.  The life cycle of O3 is very short and is like a magnet looking to attract a like atom from a molecule to divide into 2 molecules of oxygyn O2 and go air borne once again.

Obviously, if we manufacture excessive oxone the water will be pristine and the O3 will not find any contaniments, break the water's surface and go airborne.  That would be "gas off" the water's surface and it will remain to be O3 until it finds a like atom.

Off gassing is excessive ozone that has not found a like atom and goes air borne where it will eventually  find a molecule to extract from it a like atom.

To use the words of an earlier poster,

"I havebeen corrected and admit to that fact that yes, ozone is in fact a sanitizer. HOWEVER, just like chlorine ozone must first oxidize anything in the water BEFORE it can begin sanitizing. It is unlikely that there will ever be enough ozone in a spa to completely oxidize the organic matter and will therefore never have a chance to begin sanitizing"

Ozone does not discriminate between oxidation or sanitation nor between what molecules of nutrients, mineral, bacteria or viruses it attacks first.  It takes a like atom from the first thing it comes in contact with and reverts to oxygn.  

As this person says, "It is unlikely that there will ever be enough ozone in a spa to completely oxidize the organic matter and will therefore never have a chance to begin sanitizing".  

Then IF, that is the case, there is not enough ozone left to gas off.  We need to know and be aware there are times that we will need to use chemicals, as ozone is not suggested or recommended to be a stand alone oxidizer or sanitizer.  But, it does reduce substantially the amount of chemicals you would otherwise use.  

Thus, ozone does need to be used in conjunction with other chemical sanitizers and this issue of "off-gassing" is truely blown out of porportion and produces a certain element of fear.

Incidentally, I would not recommend using ozone in conjunction with BaquaSpa chemicals.  Their maintenence booklet will tell you to follow their recommendations on a 7 day schedule unless you have ozone than you need to adapt to a 4 day schedule.

That is a 43% increase in the consumption of chemicals and at the price of Bq that is a substantial increase in dealer profits.  Ozone has to oxidize something, eh!

Here is to our good health, clean, clear water and love in the tub

[Soakin]

Even though they give a general ventilation requirement guideline of .5cfm of outside air per sq. ft., they state that there is too many variables in the pool water chemistry and not enough data to determine whether this guideline is sufficient or not. Sounds like a good starting point though.

Ventilation for Acceptable Indoor Air Quality, requires 0.5 cfm (0.2 L/s) of outdoor air per square foot of pool and deck area or 15 cfm (7 L/s) per person. Because little or no data exists on the chlorine-based chemicals, it is unknown whether the amount of ventilation air supplied to the pool enclosure is sufficient to remove the pollutants emitted by the water.

Hmmm,  you and I must be like Doc and J McD, because we read the same thing and come to entirely different conclusions.  I don't see a 75 degree pool of relatively calm water as putting nearly as much stuff into the air as a 102 degree pot of ozone bubbles and sanitizer being stirred by two 3hp motors, so I wouldn't characterize this as a "good starting point."  These engineers state quite clearly that they don't know if this is adequate for a pool --  much less a spa!

Please forgive me for making assumptions, but it appears to me that you have already decided what you are going to do and are looking for validation, not input.  If you eliminate the Doc/J McD posts, you will see that most of the other posters feel that concerns about ozone indoors outweigh its potential benefits, as does the EPA and Consumer Reports.  If you are dead set on using it, IMO err on the side of excess ventilation.

[johnvb]

 Wow, thanks for all the input folks. I will post what I come up with later.