why?

[Bill_Stevenson]

>I have never heard of the ozone eating the free chlorine.<

I had not heard of it either, so I checked with my HS dealer and it is not so.  I think your advice is quite sound.  3-5 ppm of free chlorine about 10-15 minutes after the addition is what is required and ozone has no effect on this requirement.  Ozone has nothing to do with dichlor at all.  They are compatible with each other, they augment each other, they do not interfere with each other.


 

[Russ]

Maybe I am a little ignorant on this, but I have never heard of the ozone eating the free chlorine.  

The main issue is that the sanitizer level needs to be checked shortly after adding chlorine.  

Remember, you are only sanitizing the tub, not sterilizing it.  There will always be something for the chlorine and ozone to oxidize.  As soon as the chlorine runs out, bacteria will start regrouping as the ozone alone cannot (in most cases) keep up with the demand.  So check the water after 10-15 minutes of adding chlorine and make sure it gets up to the 3-5ppm range.

The ozone essentially makes it so you have to add less chlorine to get the spa to the correct level, but you still need to get the spa to 3-5ppm level.

As Chas said, "The goal is to have a barely readable amount of chlorine the next morning - having no readable amount could be trouble. " --Perfect
    

Ok..this kind of tells me what I want to know.
To confuse myself even more....
what happens when I can not see a "barely readable amount"?

[Steve]

Russ,  ozone is eating your free chlorine every day

Just goes to show that you can't believe everything you read on the internet!

Sorry pkud, I strongly disagree with your relationship on ozone and free or total chlorine. I've done tens of thousands of water tests over the years and at no point have I ever seen this effect.

Steve

[Russ]

Just goes to show that you can't believe everything you read on the internet!

 Sorry pkud, I strongly disagree with your relationship on ozone and free or total chlorine. I've done tens of thousands of water tests over the years and at no point have I ever seen this effect.

Steve

[shabba34]

Maybe I am a little ignorant on this, but I have never heard of the ozone eating the free chlorine.  

The main issue is that the sanitizer level needs to be checked shortly after adding chlorine.  

Remember, you are only sanitizing the tub, not sterilizing it.  There will always be something for the chlorine and ozone to oxidize.  As soon as the chlorine runs out, bacteria will start regrouping as the ozone alone cannot (in most cases) keep up with the demand.  So check the water after 10-15 minutes of adding chlorine and make sure it gets up to the 3-5ppm range.

The ozone essentially makes it so you have to add less chlorine to get the spa to the correct level, but you still need to get the spa to 3-5ppm level.

As Chas said, "The goal is to have a barely readable amount of chlorine the next morning - having no readable amount could be trouble. " --Perfect
    

Maybe I'm ignorant to the fact, but ozone is doing the oxidizing while you are not using the spa 24 hrs a day.  because of the introduction of dirts, oils, hair follicals, dead skin cells,  etc...  The only time that you need a residual of anything in the water is when you are using it.  That's why you go away for a few weeks and come home to a clean spa when you have ozone.  No bacteria growth, no algie.  If someone used the spa when you were gone and didn't treat it, then the story would be different.  And Ozone off gasses chlorine in a spa very quickly, hence no foul chlorine odor in the spa.  Thats why there is no reading, not because he's not using enough chlorine.  Ozone actually makes it more difficult to maintain 3-5 ppm of chlorine in a spa because of the off gassing.  The reason you cut back on the total chlorine usage, is because you don't have to use as much as "often" not because it reaches 3-5 ppm quicker.  Now as Chas said, having a small reading the following day is true if you are using straight chlorine, no ozone.  Otherwise not necessary.

[shabba34]

>I have never heard of the ozone eating the free chlorine.<

I had not heard of it either, so I checked with my HS dealer and it is not so.  I think your advice is quite sound.  3-5 ppm of free chlorine about 10-15 minutes after the addition is what is required and ozone has no effect on this requirement.  Ozone has nothing to do with dichlor at all.  They are compatible with each other, they augment each other, they do not interfere with each other.


  

ozone and chlorine do not interfere with each other, I never said that.  ozone reduces the amount of chlorine necessary. I to have performed tens of thousands of water tests, as well as owned numerous spas with and without ozone, the difference in chlor use is astounding

[shabba34]

Just goes to show that you can't believe everything you read on the internet!

 Sorry pkud, I strongly disagree with your relationship on ozone and free or total chlorine. I've done tens of thousands of water tests over the years and at no point have I ever seen this effect.

Steve

Sorry steve,
But ozone oxidizes "anything" it comes in contact with, amonias, organics, chemical compounds etc...
It takes the burden off of chlorine alowing for a smaller amount to provide the same job.  I consider myself well versed in the chemical arena, and my information is hands on not off the internet. Again you ask 10 people a chemical ? and you get 10 different answers.  Some need to go back to school if you think chlorine is not oxidized by ozone.

[SerjicalStrike]

PKUD, you said "Russ,  ozone is eating your free chlorine every day."  This implies to me, and I am sure many others, that the ozone is using up the free chlorine.  

You need to get the chlorine level up to 3-5ppm to break the bacteria threshold.  If there is only a small amount of bacteria in the water due to the ozone working, then it will take very little chlorine to bring it to 3-5ppm.  But, you still need to get it to 3-5ppm when you are done using the spa.

You say that the only time you need a residual in the spa is when you are using it.  The whole reason for a residual is to keep the spa in check when you are not using it.  Like you said, ozone is oxidizing when you are not in it.  Unfortunately, due to the short half-life of ozone in spa water, oxidizing takes up most of the ozone.  After it is done oxidizing, then it begins to act as a sanitizer.  Most of the time, it never gets this chance.

What I am trying to do when I tell customers how to use chlorine, is to give them a routine that will work 99% of the time.  When they get that down, they can back off on the chlorine a little at a time until they get to what works for them.  
If you were to have 100 customers use their spa, get the chlorine level to 1ppm,  and then leave the spa for 2 or more weeks relying only on ozone, I would bet money that over 75% of them would have some sort of biofilm problem.  

When you rely on ozone, something you have no way of testing, you are asking for trouble.

[shabba34]

PKUD, you said "Russ,  ozone is eating your free chlorine every day."  This implies to me, and I am sure many others, that the ozone is using up the free chlorine.  

You need to get the chlorine level up to 3-5ppm to break the bacteria threshold.  If there is only a small amount of bacteria in the water due to the ozone working, then it will take very little chlorine to bring it to 3-5ppm.  But, you still need to get it to 3-5ppm when you are done using the spa.

You say that the only time you need a residual in the spa is when you are using it.  The whole reason for a residual is to keep the spa in check when you are not using it.  Like you said, ozone is oxidizing when you are not in it.  Unfortunately, due to the short half-life of ozone in spa water, oxidizing takes up most of the ozone.  After it is done oxidizing, then it begins to act as a sanitizer.  Most of the time, it never gets this chance.

What I am trying to do when I tell customers how to use chlorine, is to give them a routine that will work 99% of the time.  When they get that down, they can back off on the chlorine a little at a time until they get to what works for them.  
If you were to have 100 customers use their spa, get the chlorine level to 1ppm,  and then leave the spa for 2 or more weeks relying only on ozone, I would bet money that over 75% of them would have some sort of biofilm problem.  

When you rely on ozone, something you have no way of testing, you are asking for trouble.

serjical,

that is what i am implying, ozone will oxidize clorine in the spa.  that may be why russ has no reading the next day. take that back, that is why russ has no reading.  So russ, hows about we throw in 2 1/2 gallons of liqid bleach and then balance out your boosted ph levels with a 1/2 gal of muratic acid  Joking.  Russ's original ?  Why don't I have a reading the next day?  Ozone has oxidized it.  The only other reason would be he is using way to little, or his total disolved solids are way too high, drain, clean, re-fill.

[shabba34]

>I have never heard of the ozone eating the free chlorine.<

I had not heard of it either, so I checked with my HS dealer and it is not so.  I think your advice is quite sound.  3-5 ppm of free chlorine about 10-15 minutes after the addition is what is required and ozone has no effect on this requirement.  Ozone has nothing to do with dichlor at all.  They are compatible with each other, they augment each other, they do not interfere with each other.


  

"Ozone has nothing to do with di-chlor at all"

not true by any means. If ozone has no bearing on your use of di-clor then why spend 3-4 hundred on one?  That is the whole reason you have ozone.  It reduces the amount of chemicals required.  Pull your ozone off your spa and watch the amount of chlorine required rise substatially.  Especially on your envoy.  Have that spa in my showroom occasionally with and without ozone filled with water, and the required chlorine use is drastically different.

[SerjicalStrike]

There is no way to tell if ozone is oxidizing it.  That is the problem.  The main point is that if there is no chlorine in the spa, there is no sanitizer.  

[poolboy34]

let's make this easy.  The chlorine odor is produced by CHLORAMINES, which are the by-products of chlorine reacting with ammonia or if you will the wastes that get into the spa.  i.e. Sweat, and otherbody oils.  Ozone is strictly an oxidizer.  Oxidation gets rid of chloramines.   "Shocking" and Super-Chlorinating a spa/pool helps to oxidize off the wastes/chloramines.  Ozone helps to reduce the demand of for sanitizer b/c it constantly oxidizes wastes and chloramines in the spa. so in a sense......ozone eats (breaks down) chloramines.

Jason,
Store manager for a D-1, Caldera & Nordic Spas Dealer

[Russ]

  Russ's original ?  Why don't I have a reading the next day?  Ozone has oxidized it.  The only other reason would be he is using way to little, or his total disolved solids are way too high, drain, clean, re-fill.

AH HA!!!!!!!
Potential reasons. Thats what I need to hear.
So for a 400 gallon tub, used 3-5 times a week, how much sanitizer should be put in?...roughly speaking.

And... How does one know the dissolved solids are way too high?

[shabba34]

AH HA!!!!!!!
Potential reasons. Thats what I need to hear.
So for a 400 gallon tub, used 3-5 times a week, how much sanitizer should be put in?...roughly speaking.

And... How does one know the dissolved solids are way too high?

Bring your water in to get tested #1. (For TDS) less than 2500 ppm should be ok

Low ph 7.2or less, chlorine more active and will dissipate quicker.  (Could also be a reason)

Again, your chlorine situation sounds very normal with ozone.  But I frey to say without everone else jumping down my throat, but if you want loads of chlorine in the spa then 2 to 3 tbs after each use and repeat shock once a week.  (I repeat, I think that is way too much and defeats the purpose of your ozone)

Just to reiterate for some who are misinformed;  ozone offgassing (little bubbles leaving the spa takes chlorine with it  when it leaves, which is a major reason why chlorine residuals don't show the next day or the next, unless you load the spa with chlorine.

Hope that helps russ
ps: chlorine does its job in about 35-40 seconds, ozone is on contact.

[shabba34]

let's make this easy.  The chlorine odor is produced by CHLORAMINES, which are the by-products of chlorine reacting with ammonia or if you will the wastes that get into the spa.  i.e. Sweat, and otherbody oils.  Ozone is strictly an oxidizer.  Oxidation gets rid of chloramines.   "Shocking" and Super-Chlorinating a spa/pool helps to oxidize off the wastes/chloramines.  Ozone helps to reduce the demand of for sanitizer b/c it constantly oxidizes wastes and chloramines in the spa. so in a sense......ozone eats (breaks down) chloramines.

Jason,
Store manager for a D-1, Caldera & Nordic Spas Dealer

Thank you Jason, I was beginning to think I was from the island of misfit toys.