What's a Big Player?

[Dr. Spa™ Ret.]

Just a passing thought here.......

Most of the pros here recommend to stick with the "big players" (manufacturers) when purchasing a spa. So I was thinking, what exactly makes a particular manufacturer big?

I'm looking for exact answers. If it's the number of spas sold annually, how many is required to be "big". If it's time in business, how long is long enough. If it's a number of different criteria, what exactly is it? You get the idea  

[Chas]

Well, one way to judge is simply the physical size of the plant. Go to Global explorer and enter the HotSpring adress: 1280 Park Center Drive, Vista, CA. You'll see what looks like four buildings - it's actually three. Above you'll see a dirt lot that looks a bit like the shape of a grand piano. That has since been enlarged, paved, and is now the employee parking lot.

That lot is bigger than the entire D1 plant just to the right of it.

HotSpring has been in biz 27 years.

HotSpring has produced well over 600,000 tubs in that time, and I don't know the numbers for the end of 2004, but they very well could have supassed the 700,000 mark, though I think 650,000 is a more conservative number.

HotSpring and Caldera have over 800 dealers worldwide.

Don't know what your lookin' for, but I would say any tub maker who is in that league would classify as 'big' in my book.

Disclaimer - I don't mean to imply that D1 or any other company is somehow lower quality because they are puny. Doc asked about "Big" so I answered accordingly.

[Mendocino101]

I would think a number of things...how many spas sold...yes....is it sold nationally and internatioanlly....how long in busniess....is it full spa maker or just a company that assembles parts....do they have a full time R&D deptpartment...do they have a dealer network and if so are they dealer agreements or just on the fly realtionships....I am sure there are many others but I put stock in those...

[Cgar]

That lot is bigger than the entire D1 plant just to the right of it.

This tidbit must be part of the HS training.  And, while you may not be implying anything Chas, I know of at least one HS salesperson who uses this to 'knock' D1.  I almost cracked up when a prospective client told me this.  Fortunately they found it funny as well.  In their words, "Bigger doesn't always mean better.".

Disclaimer - I don't mean to imply that HS or any other company is somehow lower quality because they are huge.    HS makes a great product and based on input here, seems to provide great training as well.

[poolboy34]

I would also add how well they support their dealers.  The type and quality of training they provide for their dealers (both sales and service tech.).  Are they a leader in the industry: i.e. do they design and develop spas and features that make their peers say "wow".  INMO this is important b/c as most of us industry professionals can attest that the spa industry is full of "copycat" manufacturers, and the ones who are truly industry leaders tend to stand out more.  I would also say that there should be Two categories for the "Big Players", one for publically held companies and the other for privately held companies.  

And as a side note: Yes watkins plant is very large, but they also make 5-6 lines of spas, each of which has there own section in the plant, from manufacturing, R& D, Marketing, etc....  The D-1 plant, although smaller, is just as impressive as the Watkins plant.

[Chas]

This tidbit must be part of the HS training.

No, but it is very obvious to anyone who has been to the plant, or looked up the address on GlobalExplorer.

Disclaimer - I don't mean to imply that HS or any other company is somehow lower quality because they are huge.    HS makes a great product...

Your point is well made - there are plenty of companies making great tubs. Some of those companies are micro, and some of those companies are mega.

As I said above - Doc asked about 'Big,' so I answered accordingly.

[Chas]

And as a side note: Yes watkins plant is very large, but they also make 5-6 lines of spas, each of which has there own section in the plant,

No, that's not correct. All the spas go down the same assembly lines, except Caldera. Those tubs are formed and fiberglassed elsewhere, then brought to the Vista facility for finishing. That area used to house the cover manufacturing plant which has moved to another facility offsite.

[Wisoki]

Well, aparrently nobody can give you an EXACT answer Doc, so I will. The brand I sell.

Just a passing thought here.......

Most of the pros here recommend to stick with the "big players" (manufacturers) when purchasing a spa. So I was thinking, what exactly makes a particular manufacturer big?

I'm looking for exact answers. If it's the number of spas sold annually, how many is required to be "big". If it's time in business, how long is long enough. If it's a number of different criteria, what exactly is it? You get the idea  

[Dr. Spa™ Ret.]

I'm not quite sure what I'm looking for here, or even how to explain it..... so I'll just ramble a bit   I can be good at that sometimes. ....

I apologize if any of this offends anyone (good way to start). I've been coming to this board a LONG time...... probably longer than anyone else here, except possibly Frank...... Seen a lot come and go here too. Lately there seems to be more pros here than ever before... And all of the pros sell what is considered to be a "major player" in the industry. AND, you guys (and gals perhaps) REALLY stick together on this, "buy from the big guys" thing. Mind you, I have NOTHING against any of you, hell, most of you I know or have at least met. I even like you guys. I however also understand a marketing advantage of sticking together and pushing the "major players".  I mean, just look, you have all these pros, from DIFFERENT manufacturers who all say, any of the spas are great, just stick to the major players....... well, one point of view, could be, this then eliminates any regional manufacturer and basically gives you a 1 in 4 chance of selling your brand.

There are a lot of smaller regional spa manufacturers around. A LOT! Many of them have been in business LONGER than some of the "major players".  Many of them put their heart and soul into their product, use top of the line components, and offer exemplary service and support. I see no reason for blanketly dismissing ALL but the "big players".

Sure they may not have the national coverage that the "big players" have, don't have the R&D, but I dint think that necessarily make them any less of a value or quality spa. Some of these regional manufacturers don't want to expand to a national lever (or don't have the means or ways  too) feeling it might cheapen their product or cause them to lose control. Some are even of the opinion of, "why bother? Life is good, why go to all the work and headaches of that type of expansion".

So, again, my questions is, what exactly makes a big player big? If it's number of units sold, gimmie a number. And chas, Hot Spirings doesn't count. They are SO FAR above and beyond the others in terms of size and number of sales I for one don't need them for comparisons purposes. I do however, have some VERY confidential numbers from inside sources on some of the other manufacturers that get mentioned as "one of the big ones".

[poolboy34]

No, that's not correct. All the spas go down the same assembly lines, except Caldera. Those tubs are formed and fiberglassed elsewhere, then brought to the Vista facility for finishing. That area used to house the cover manufacturing plant which has moved to another facility offsite.

Thanks chas, I only got to see the caldera side of the plant.  I must say though that Watkins has a GREAT training Classroom there.

[empolgation]

"Big Player" means "Big Marketing Budget". The sales and size will coincide with the $$ spent over time. Good reputation keeps you a Big Player.

[stuart]

Doc, I think your confusing market saturation with quality (maybe that's the point )

Many companies could be considered a Major Player or Big Player yet their customer service and quality doesn't always stand up to some smaller manufactures.

I agree that many of the smaller, well rounded companies are "major contenders" because they put so much "heart" into what they do however, most of the larger factories get to control innovation with engineering dollars and buying power. Hopefully they take advantage of that with a higher quality product.

Let's take your product as an example; Hand made with experience, care, attention to detail and craftsmanship but do you have the same technology and features that a larger, wealthier company has? That doesn't change your customer service or quality but it does change your market saturation and you of all people have not allowed it to hold you back by creating a "niche" that the bigger companies cannot copy because it does not fit into mass production.

[Gomboman]

Well, one way to judge is simply the physical size of the plant. Go to Global explorer and enter the HotSpring adress: 1280 Park Center Drive, Vista, CA.

Chas, can you explain how to search on the address?  When I go to http://www.globalexplorer.com/
I just get the page about their products.  I guess I failed the test.

[Chas]

I'll try:

It's
http://imageatlas.globexplorer.com/ImageAtlas/view.do?group=ImageAtlas

[Wisoki]

This I emphatically disagree with. The larger companies conservativly sit on their thumbs waiting for R&D to come up with an idea, while the smaller reigonal people are looking at the spas they build asking them selves "what's next?" I am sure you would consider Catalina to be a "small player" because their r&d department isn't a second floor think tank, but guess who the first company to build a stereo system into a hot tub was? I'll give you three guesses and the first two don't count. Now imagine this, I don't think there is a spa line out there tthat doesn't offer a stereo system of some sort. "Big players" are better, by your definition, I don't think so.  

however, most of the larger factories get to control innovation with engineering dollars and buying power. Hopefully they take advantage of that with a higher quality product.