Education on Arctic Spas

[stabone]

Also I will have to look into hydro-pool I am not familiar with that product, I am sure there will be alot of similar design to an Arctic coming out, or already out there.

[stabone]

And to you spahappy if it is no big feat, and your tub can't even do it, what does that say?

[Steve]

Hydropool has been around for 25 + years. Please learn your industry if you plan on developing any credibility here prior to suggesting we all copied the mighty Arctic spa. This guy is a piece of work...

Why do they all have this same mentality and shining personalities? Are you guys robots?


Personally, I don't care about comparing (slamming) other manufacturers. Here are basic questions for starters...

What makes an Arctic any more efficient than any other thermal pane spa?

How do you address the possibilities of a leak with unsupported plumbing?

Where is the air drawn from for the jets?

Is the cabinet 100% closed (sealed)

What is the R value of the cover? At what point does the thickness become redundant?

What HP pump are used and what id the ratio which determines this?

Why are many of the Arctic molds similar to ones used 8+ years ago?

How do armrests work in a spa filled with water?

What do you base monthly operating costs on when quoting to customers?

How does your "independant study" play a role in your presentation?

Where are you located?

I'll start with these easy ones first. Sorry to butt in boys!

Steve

[autoplay]

What "point" is Stabone trying to make??  This Stabone person reminds me of JA,but minus a few dozen IQ points.

[stabone]

I have to go now, but will return, something for you boys to chew on while I am gone, do any of your products have, full fiberglass floors that require no foundation, 5-4 inch taper cover with 2lb foam, molded with no cuting of the foam,  totally self supporting shell, or offer powder coated Aluminium cabinets. Or reflex torsion hose, that glues over all fittings, inter wraped with pvc instead of steel wrapped flex pipe, not designed to hold and flex with water weight.  
 Don't think so!!!

[stabone]

I am still waiting to find out about that coleman insulation, and also hydro-pool, do you know how many hydro this and hydro that products I see, don't really standout,

[Steve]

Gotta go already? Well thanks for addressing the questions and showing the true make-up of an Arctic salesperson once again! You guys are amazing and it makes us all feel better that true geniuses like yourself are steering the ship!

Did we not do this thread about half a dozen times before with these Arctic sales guys with the same results? It would be interesting if someone from there could be a stand-up sort of guy and have an open debate. Then again, we do thoroughly enjoy all of their sales pitches right?  

Steve

[stuart]

Unfortunately, I didn't get to spend a great deal of time with Stuart and his gorgeous wife. We chatted in our booth briefly and he is the spitting image of Garth Brooks when he wears his cowboy hat!  That's a compliment Stu!  
 
As for this post, I have a few questions but will wait my turn after Stuart. I promise not to jump in from the top ropes! Stick your hand out Stuart when you're done buddy..  

Steve buddy, one of the bigger disappointments is that I didn’t get to spend more time hanging with you and mendo. BTW, the only way that I have a woman that looks like my wife is I’ve convinced her that I am Garth!

I have to go ahead and tag here because I don’t have the time nor energy to deal with this Arctic nut right now so you guys go for it. I will however throw a few comments out.

I don’t want a spa that has no insulation on the shell or pluming.

I think the aluminum cabinet is crazy and a foolish gimmick but again only time will tell.

If you think you’re the only company to have a self supporting base your confused (common with arctic) even a little company like Great Lakes has one now. Jacuzzi was doing that almost 20 years ago and went away from it for problems.

Spa Depot has the same cover and a Galvalume frame to boot. I have done the same test many times with their thermo pane type insulation with little to no heat loss. I wonder how many customers can give the same testimonial – where they shut the heat off and have not loss with the cover open? I doubt many.

I would love to have an arctic alongside a D1 and contaminate both spas to see which can keep up with the filtration. Why don’t you concentrate less on items that give you a great sales pitch and more on items that make sense for therapy, cleanliness and longevity?

Deprogramming a customer from an Arctic salespitch is amazing but once they see the light they are customers for life! I can’t imagine how hard it would be to deprogram an arctic Salesman!

Like cal spas, there are many more industry pros that are insulted with the Arctic pitch than believe it! Many of us support one another’s brands even though we compete against each other daily yet I know few industry pros that would support Arctic as a competitor….

BTW, I could throw in a pitch for just about any other brand with proprietary features and ask who else had it. The real question is who else wants it?

[poolboy34]

I have to go now, but will return, something for you boys to chew on while I am gone, do any of your products have, full fiberglass floors that require no foundation, 5-4 inch taper cover with 2lb foam, molded with no cuting of the foam,  totally self supporting shell, or offer powder coated Aluminium cabinets. Or reflex torsion hose, that glues over all fittings, inter wraped with pvc instead of steel wrapped flex pipe, not designed to hold and flex with water weight.  
  Don't think so!!!

WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!  Did everyone else hear that sound too?  BIG can o' worms opened with that one.  

I really don't know where to start on this one..............

Does anyone Know what happens to powder coated aluminum when it gets scratched?  For all of you dealers who also sell patty o'furniture, you know the answer to that one.  Lots of beautiful looking orange spots

glues over all fittings?  What the heck does that mean???  Call me crazy but most all of the BIG BOYS now use not only glue to hold the plumbing together but also barbed fittings and compression clamps (which are a REAL BEOTCH to not only remove but also to get back on without the proper tools).

Fiberglass floor...................well I'm sure if this was the best thing since sliced bread EVERYONE would be using them.  For one Fiberglass is very susceptible to humidity.  Hence, when placing a spa they are often slid into place.  This can cause microscopic cracks in the base.........Humidity is easily absorbed into fiberglass thus causing the microscopic cracks to widen.  (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiberglass)  For more info on Fiberglass.

5-4 inch tapered cover:  that would give the cover a slight 1 inch pitch.............why are spa covers tapered?  To allow snow, ice and water to slide off of the cover, thus why MOST manufacturers use covers with a 2 inch pitch.  Now the 2 LB density foam is great, i will admit that that is a good thing, we often have customers get the 2 LB foam when they order a replacement cover.  But let's face facts...........most manufacturers use a cover that has 1.5LB density foam, and our customers have NEVER had any complaints on energy costs in the winter (it commonly gets well below zero here in the winter, not to mention the nearly 200" of white stuff we get annually).

As for the lil "test" you did.................Well we  sell a few brands of spas among them is Hawkeye spas which DO NOT come with a circ pump.  we have one on our show room floor.  Now due to the size of the pump in this spa it's not uncommon for it to trip it's breaker (we have it on a 50 AMP currently, it needs a 60 AMP breaker.  And NO we are not going to install a new breaker b/c once the current inventory is gone we won't be reordering that brand due to issues we have them).  It did this one week and we left it off b/c we did not know at that time what was causing the problem, and 5 days went by before our spa tech had a chance to look at it........the spa was originally 100 degrees, in the five days it was not running it only lost 5 degrees.  Granted these are partial foam spas.  We also happen to sell D-1 Spas.  When the temp goes above the set temp on a D-1 spa it goes into a "cool Down" mode.  this effectively shuts off the heater and circ pump.  When this happens in the show room, we have to open the covers to get the temp down, b/c if we don't it literally takes 3-5 days for the temp to come down on its own.

ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.......the sweet sound of a DIFFERENT kind o'can being opened up

[Chas]

Can any of you heat your tubs up to 104 and then unplug your heaters for however long the tub stays on the floor,

I don't quite see the point, nor do I see what this is supposed to prove. Try to keep temp without running your pumps and see what happens - not that THAT makes any sense either. I can set our spas for 104, and they stay at 104. If the heat has to kick in for a minute now and then, it does so.

They will stay at the set temp even in warm weather I might add - and that's not something that may be said of tubs which allow a direct path for the heat from the pumps into the water. But our small circ pump continues to run.

and yes I do open the cover most of the day which results in temperature falling through out the day to around 98 degrees if the cover is off all day, then it is back to 104 by the next morning, so how can you argue that the pumps don't heat, or aid in heating water. The facts are facts.

Yes, the facts are the facts. But the bottom line is still this: set a FF tub for a temp, and it will hold that temp in hot or cold weather. There is no unwanted heat gain in warm weather, and no heat loss in cold weather. Set it and forget it. And you don't have to monkey with timeclock settings to be sure you aren't running the big pumps too much or too little.

And if the FF tub in question is equipped with a small circ pump as HotSpring tubs are, and you want to fool around disconnecting things, go ahead. It will get up to 95 and stay there with the heat turned off. Run the jets for an hour with the lid closed and it will boost it up to 104 or more. So don't tell me that a HotSpring doesn't recycle heat from the pumps - fact are facts.

Now - a simple question, which Roger has already posed: if your tubs are heating by the waste heat from the motors, what happens the other 20 hours a day when the pumps are shut off? Now you simply have less insulation than a FF spa. Facts are facts.

One more little fact: motors will last longer if they have cool or even cold air circulating through them - or if they are sitting in a cool or cold environment. HotSpring - and some others - draw outside air to cool the motors. HS then sends it into the air system of the hydromassage jets to recycle as much heat as we can. But the motors are not sitting in a 'hot box.'

[poolboy34]

Excelent points from Chas as always.

[Mendocino101]

Chas...

Thanks for mentioning that...I thought it was simple enough to know that ff will hold more heat when the pumps are off than will a thermo when also off...I think it is easy for most all to agree that when the pumps are running a thermo design spa works very well.....it when they are not that debate "heats up"....but as I mentioned before it is superiority of Artic and its salespeople that so many have problems with.....I believe they build a nice spa.....very over priced but nice....well nice enough I guess.....as Coleman was mentioned before here similar in many ways.....but it at a much better value.....

[Chas]

Funny thing is - when I look at the pictures of actic spas on their web site, I see what looks like about four to six inches of foam insulation. That's about all that some 'full foam' spas have in the narrow areas.

In my opinion - backed by a lot of dialog with insulation folks as well as reading and surfing - I believe that the first four to six inches does well over 99% of the heat-retention. So when you create a design like Artic, all you do is give up a few things. Things like: control over the temp in warm weather, noise suppression, support for the plumbing, equipment longevity, and structural integrity.

Hmm. Not a good trade-off in my opinion.

[moshspa]

Lori,

     I did get the Sundance Optima, good guess.  And if the dealer had been  as negative about another manufacture as some of the above posts, I would probably have just gotten out of a D1.  

[stuart]

Chas,
Sorry I didn't wait for the tag but thanks for wading in anyway! I've always had to  question a design where you spray that much foam on the cabinet and then leave it hang there without anything supporting the other side, won't it have a tendency to pull away from the cabinet? Or, even worse, pull the cabinet inwards?