So what does ISO9001 mean?

[BobRex]

Since Chris brought it up, my recollection of ISO certification is that it just certifies the "process" not the product.  I used to work for Agere as an IT support engineer, we had training in ISO 9000, 9001 and 1400.  In all cases the focus was on documenting the procedures and then following the documentation to the letter.  Basically, say what you do and do what you say.  We never had any focus on the end product; it is just assumed that by following proper procedures, the result would be of a certain quality.  But that wasn't always the case.  The trick was that most of Europe requires a company to have ISO certification before that company will be accepted into the Euro market.  We did the certification to open the European market to our chipsets.

Bottom line as far as I'm concerned, is that advertising ISO is a gimmick.  Most consumers and probably many retailers don't know what ISO means.  It just looks impressive.

[tonyp]

I agree.  I've worked for 3 "certified" companies (including Agere) and found ISO 9001 to be only somewhat useful in an engineering environment, although in manufacturing it might be a different story.

[poolboy34]

This is precisely why Watkins, D-1 and Sundance are ISO certified, so they can sell tubs in the european marketplace.

[countryboy]

teh way our in house ISO guy likes to put it is "You can make cement life jackets and be ISO certified, as long as you follow the procedure you have written to make them"

[ebirrane]

True, but for manufacturing there are several common-sense gotchas that sometimes just need documenting to make sure they are not forgotten.

A great example in the lab where I was an in-house auditor was equipment calibration. ISO 9001 had a blurb about equipment calibration, so someone had to figure out how often certain pieces of equipment needed to be calibrated.  Was equipment calibrated before ISO9001? You betcha, but not as regularly as it happened like clockwork after the audits.

It won't fix a fundamentally flawed process, but it ensures that the product was made according to that process.  For something intangible like software ISO9001 is, IMO, next to useless and should be replaced with something like the CMM model (or whatever it has evolved into).

For manufacturing it is a great way to prove people are trained, equipment is calibrated, subcontractors are verified, and the everyone is at least on the same page.  The market in general will then tell you if the page everyone is on is worth anything!  

-Ed

[Drewski]

I'm always curious how companies in the USA look at "standards" or "certified processes" as merit badges to be obtained and then forgot about.

ISO 9000 and 9001 are all about principles of management and less about process, although sound management leads to a worthwhile, productive and cost saving process.  Edward Demming, an American, taught this to the Japanese back in the 50s.  Needless to say, they took to it well.  He was rejected by most so called "experts" in US manufacturing during the same time period.

Maybe if spa manufacturers took this more seriously, we wouldn't have all the "problems" reported by consumers on this forum? ( I'm sure THAT comment will generate discussion)

For more info on ISO, check out this website

Drewski

[ndabunka]

True, but for manufacturing there are several common-sense gotchas that sometimes just need documenting to make sure they are not forgotten.

A great example in the lab where I was an in-house auditor was equipment calibration. ISO 9001 had a blurb about equipment calibration, so someone had to figure out how often certain pieces of equipment needed to be calibrated.  Was equipment calibrated before ISO9001? You betcha, but not as regularly as it happened like clockwork after the audits.

It won't fix a fundamentally flawed process, but it ensures that the product was made according to that process.  For something intangible like software ISO9001 is, IMO, next to useless and should be replaced with something like the CMM model (or whatever it has evolved into).

For manufacturing it is a great way to prove people are trained, equipment is calibrated, subcontractors are verified, and the everyone is at least on the same page.  The market in general will then tell you if the page everyone is on is worth anything!  

-Ed

This is a very accurate representation. My father runs his own business. He calibrates equipment. His business increased significantly when the iso9XXX push came. The process forces repitition. This is good as anyone who repeatedly (sp?) makes a bad product will quickly go out of business. Those businesses repetedly making a good product (i.e. no leaks) will thrive. ISO9000 seems to have a good place in this business IMHO.  ISO for mfg INCLUDES a repeatable testing stage. This means that spa mfgs that are ISO 9000 certified TEST their units. This means that you are FAR more likely to discover a mfg problem in an ISO certified business than a non-certified business. Those that aren't certified...Well, I guess we just take their word for it that their units don't leak.

[Hammerhead]

... In all cases the focus was on documenting the procedures and then following the documentation to the letter.  Basically, say what you do and do what you say. ...

The concept of ISO is great, but it can be taken too far.  Our company, in my opinion, has gone overboard.  Our ISO documentation has become so complex and cumbersome it's almost not worth making small changes that could even lead to small improvements.  We joke at work that we have to fill out the proper ISO-related form just to go to the bathroom.  

[Spa_Tech]

I'm always curious how companies in the USA look at "standards" or "certified processes" as merit badges to be obtained and then forgot about.

ISO 9000 and 9001 are all about principles of management and less about process, although sound management leads to a worthwhile, productive and cost saving process.  Edward Demming, an American, taught this to the Japanese back in the 50s.  Needless to say, they took to it well.  He was rejected by most so called "experts" in US manufacturing during the same time period.

Maybe if spa manufacturers took this more seriously, we wouldn't have all the "problems" reported by consumers on this forum? ( I'm sure THAT comment will generate discussion)

For more info on ISO, check out this website

Drewski

 

Drewski is dead on. And this is worthy of discussion not only because Ive had enough experience with non-ISO manufacturers to contemplate slitting my wrists, but it has a significant impact with the end user.

Basically writing down all the things you do to manufacture or process a product, maintaining and managing standards or benchmarks for said product, AND then following through on everything youve written down is essential to product consistancy and keeping employees accountable to the quality of the product.

There are two manufacturers in my town and neither are even in the ballpark of ISO.

In fact, I'm almost certain that no two spas from each of those manufacturers are the same, even if they are the same model, with the same features. Further- having delivered for one of them, Im certain that there is no post production checklist for outgoing product- There have been missing jets, missing pillows, missing topside control decals, damaged cabinetry, overcooked shells, and sometimes leakage.

The other manufacturer, while I havent delivered for them, is similarly afflicted- Im told by an inside source, that 30 or 40 spas are produced a day, and nearly two-thirds have some defect before the product leaves for shipping. Many of the issues are directly attributable to insufficient training and compensation to skilled workers. They've wasted time and money getting tangled up in problems with Cal-OSHA, the EPA, and the Department of Immigration. Add to this, two self-igniting factory fires(one of which did $30,000.00 in damage.) and the fact that the unfinished product is qued outside, being subjected to conditions that actually exempt them from covering repair under warranty, were it installed at a customers home...

What does ISO9001 mean?

It means all that bad stuff is less likely to occur because someone is taking responsibility by adhering to a set of established processes and following through with a piece of paper that shows the job was completed step by step to prevent errors.

While its not necessary to be ISO certified to do this, using a simple checklist for each process wouldnt kill anyone. Rant off.

[HotTubMan]

An what city do you live in, real one?

[Chas]

I have had to hire a new delivery supervisor. The one we have now is going off to college soon, so I want to be ready for next season.

The man being replaced is my son, and he has grown up around this stuff. He can wire a spa, install an ozone system and put on a cover lift all at the same time, while giving the customer a walk-through of chems and filling out all the needed paperwork. In his sleep. With one hand tied behind his back. In the dark.

But since he knows it all so thoroughly, we are having a hard time transferring that to the new man who has no experience in spas. What has helped? An ISO-style approach. We are documenting the process, creating checklists, and making it into a system.

The progress was instantly improved as the first checklist went out on the job. And as we fine-tune it, the jobs go better and better. In fact, even my can't-do-wrong son is finding it easier to do the job, and much easier to teach his replacement.

I say all that to say this: ISO is one way to create a systematic approach - and it has the added bonuses of costing money which tends to make one want to get the fullest advantage, and it incorporates outside auditors, which tends to keep one honest.