question for coleman dealers???

[jcmsrv]

Alright, enough insulation talk, back to subject. Has interior space, (volume) difference between tub companines been compared???

Can you tell I took some time off from work to work around the house!!!
john

[stuart]

I just knew I shouldn't have said that!!!, But now everyones in the game!  LET THE GAMES BEGIN!

Stuart, I would like to know the difference between the quality  insulation jobs between companies like arctic/coleman. As an outsider, still learning, I have not talked to reps. about how they insulate. Good point.

Also, everything I have heard/read about leaks HAS BEEN on lesser quality brands, but that can happen to anyone machines. One of the things I do, is new start-up of very large pkge. heating/cooling equipment, such as Malls, office bldge, schools, and we have what we call monday or friday machines, Machines that the factory claims were test ran and were OK. But I find different.

My biggest issue with the way that Arctic insulates is that they spray all of they foam on the inside wall of the cabinet. By not filling the void they allow the weight of the foam to pull against the cabinet and then encourage more weight from water by adding several places on the cabinet to bring in moisture(i.e. rails top/bottom and door panels that bolt against rather than fit in the cabinet wall). In addition, by doing it this way they don’t provide any sound deadening nor support for the hoses and jets. They tout the fact that they are the only manufacture to use “Reflex Torsion hose” and are proud of that. I have news for you, with around 200 manufactures someone else would have picked it up if it was that good, it was available to all of us. The sheer nature of that type plumbing makes it harder to work with, glue and more in need of support, it’s bigger and heavier than standard PVC…

Let’s look at the heating system; first off, most of their marketing and sales pitch states that they can heat the spa without a heating element yet they put an expensive proprietary element in anyway, is this just to add cost? Many, many manufactures have tried to coat the element with Teflon and titanium but the failure rate made them quit. An example of that type of coating would be a Teflon coated skillet that you replace every year, the coating will and does come off!

Now, how about the “forever floor”? My first comment to that is I think it was absolutely unethical to sell it to the consumer the way they did when it came out. Did you get the “Ants in the cabinet pitch”? Over half of the dealers in the US were using that pitch which leads me to believe that it came from a factory level but regardless, if you understand the properties of fiberglass you would understand why putting a fiberglass base on the ground is a bad idea, have you ever heard of a substance called Cobalt?

All in all Arctic might have their place however it’s my opinion that everything on their spa is much more marketing oriented then engineering oriented and their sales pitch borderlines unethical.

I’ve said this many times, the statement of “Made in Canada for cold northeast conditions” makes me wonder how on earth my Eddie Bauer cold weather clothing made in Malaysia can keep me warm. Oh and BTW, on the Arctic website they make the statement “inspired by one of the most successfully adapted cold-weather animals in the world, the great white Polar Bear”, I have news for you, God made the Polar Bear with full insulation and no “dead air space” (or should that be “dead bear space”). Maybe he should have consulted some of the single moms (another Arctic pitch) working at Arctic before creating them.

[HotTubMan]

They tout the fact that they are the only manufacture to use “Reflex Torsion hose” and are proud of that. I have news for you, with around 200 manufactures someone else would have picked it up if it was that good, it was available to all of us. The sheer nature of that type plumbing makes it harder to work with, glue and more in need of support, it’s bigger and heavier than standard PVC…

I use this logic when I am discussing proprietary features with shoppers. Use Beachcomber for example. I will say there is some logic to the external equipment, but it is more marketing than anything. More to my point, it is not patented, so if it is in fact the best thing since sliced bread, why hasn't anyone else done it?

Some features are so new that no one has had a chance/desire to copy them, especially if they are patented.

HTM

[Spatech_tuo]

Has interior space, (volume) difference between tub companines been compared???

There is no difference in internal spa volume between full foam and thermopane if that's what you're asking. Otherwise, its up to the individual to decide what kind of layout they like (lounge vs no lounge, open seating versus "bucket" seating).

[JPKeirstead]

I was going to post a long reply to Stuart's attack, however, I don't really see what that would accomplish.

I only have one question... What good do your comments do for the image of our industry?  Certainly, any consumer reading this would question the ethics of our industry.  Would it not serve us all more to focus on answering  the important questions and concerns of the customers on here constructively?  

[stuart]

I was going to post a long reply to your attack, however, I don't really see what that would accomplish.

I only have one question... What good do your comments do for the image of our industry?  Certainly, any consumer reading this would question the ethics of our industry.  Would it not serve us all more to focus on answering the important questions and concerns of the customers on here constructively?  

There are brands out there like Thermo, haven and arctic that I feel as an industry professional I have the responsibility to put questions in the customers minds. As someone that has spent much of my life in this industry I should have the ability to separate sales pitch and fact more than the average customer. If it bothers you that I lay out what I see as issues with your brand then instead of getting hurt with me go after the manufacture and help bring them up to standard. I’m certainly not the only one that feels this way, search the boards and see what many other Techs, salesman and dealers say. You can pull all of the happy customers you want out of your hat and it simply means that they are happy with their purchase and defending it RIGHT NOW, most of them have no basis for comparison as they have owned and/or worked on 1 brand of tubs.

To answer you directly; Certainly a customer going through an Arctic sales pitch would have to question the ethics of a company that made statements like “made in Canada for cold northern conditions”. Do you not see the irony in that? That would be like HotSpring or D1 saying “Made in California, closer to water so we understand hydro therapy better”!

My “attack” was simply my opinion based on much experience and I welcome you posting yours….

[HotTubMan]

I, for one, support your comments Stuart. There is no more paranoid consumer than one that has shopped at an Arctic dealer.

HTM

[poolboy34]

There are brands out there like Thermo, haven and arctic that I feel as an industry professional I have the responsibility to put questions in the customers minds. As someone that has spent much of my life in this industry I should have the ability to separate sales pitch and fact more than the average customer. If it bothers you that I lay out what I see as issues with your brand then instead of getting hurt with me go after the manufacture and help bring them up to standard. I’m certainly not the only one that feels this way, search the boards and see what many other Techs, salesman and dealers say. You can pull all of the happy customers you want out of your hat and it simply means that they are happy with their purchase and defending it RIGHT NOW, most of them have no basis for comparison as they have owned and/or worked on 1 brand of tubs.

To answer you directly; Certainly a customer going through an Arctic sales pitch would have to question the ethics of a company that made statements like “made in Canada for cold northern conditions”. Do you not see the irony in that? That would be like HotSpring or D1 saying “Made in California, closer to water so we understand hydro therapy better”!

My “attack” was simply my opinion based on much experience and I welcome you posting yours….

I support and respect Stuart's opinion.  As an industry professional it is our duty to educate our customers on what to look for in a spa and to help them seperate the facts from the fluff.  Now being a manager I try to stay out of sales if i can (I leave that to my sales staff), but I do deal with customers post purchase and let me tell ya I can always tell who's been misinformed................

Thankfully it's usually a customer who either purchased their spa from a show, or from a competitor, but nonetheless it is not a pleasant experience to A.) educate, and also B.) re-insure the customer that they got a great spa (even if it is from a competitor and I honestly believe it's a POS compared to what we sell).

[JPKeirstead]

There are brands out there like Thermo, haven and arctic that I feel as an industry professional I have the responsibility to put questions in the customers minds. As someone that has spent much of my life in this industry I should have the ability to separate sales pitch and fact more than the average customer. If it bothers you that I lay out what I see as issues with your brand then instead of getting hurt with me go after the manufacture and help bring them up to standard. I’m certainly not the only one that feels this way, search the boards and see what many other Techs, salesman and dealers say. You can pull all of the happy customers you want out of your hat and it simply means that they are happy with their purchase and defending it RIGHT NOW, most of them have no basis for comparison as they have owned and/or worked on 1 brand of tubs.

To answer you directly; Certainly a customer going through an Arctic sales pitch would have to question the ethics of a company that made statements like “made in Canada for cold northern conditions”. Do you not see the irony in that? That would be like HotSpring or D1 saying “Made in California, closer to water so we understand hydro therapy better”!
[/quote]

Firstly, I am with Arctic Spas, and frankly our product is already better then the "Standard" as you put it.  I am certainly not hurt by your criticism.  Perhaps you are right that living in Edmonton does not guarantee our capacity to make a better insulated spa, but it definitely requires us to consider it more carefully then a company whose people live in a warm climate like California, because if a spa has a problem at -40 the chances of long term damage occuring from freezing is very real.

Our product makes sense.  Recovering the waste heat from the motors makes sense.  Having access to repair the spa in the event of a problem makes sense.  Having a floor on your spa makes sense.  Having a cover that can handle a heavy snow load, insulates better and doesn't absorb water as easy makes sense.  Making your spa shell thicker and stronger so that it will last longer makes sense.  Building a cabinet with sturdy materials, like Cedar and extruded Aluminum, so they last longer makes sense.  

There are at least two studies that prove our method of insulation is effective.  There is countless anecdotal data supporting the quality of our product.

It seems obvious too me that you don't really know our product that well.  You should do more research.

[Spatech_tuo]

 Perhaps you are right that living in Edmonton does not guarantee our capacity to make a better insulated spa, but it definitely requires us to consider it more carefully then a company whose people live in a warm climate like California, because if a spa has a problem at -40 the chances of long term damage occuring from freezing is very real.

That is RIDICULOUS logic and flat out untrue. Sundance, Hot Spring, Caldera and  D1 are probably the biggest spa makers in California but they sell spas all around North America and SO MANY go to the same places as Arctic spas (as a whole, far more than Arctic sells there) and they have just as much need to insulate properly as Arctic. I wish I knew how many spas they sell in the upper states and throughout Canada but we know it an enormous amount. Just because they sell many spas in the sunshine states does not mean they can afford to insulate them any less and they DO NOT. Try to pump up Arctic on their own merit rather than using conventient logic about the competition that has no basis in truth.

[poolboy34]

I just have to reply to this.  I'm in the North east, we've been selling D-1 spas for 18+ years now.  i can tell you that where are located we get a lot of snow and cold in the winter.  temperatures are normal below Zero in Jan and february, and the D-1 Spas have no difficulities in these conditions.  We have thousands of spas we've sold out in the filed.  Not bad for a spa made in california.  

Jason,
Store manager for a D-1 & Caldera Dealer

[stuart]

So which keirstead do we have the pleasure of debating with here, James or John?

Lot's of companies have bases but most of them are smart enough to understand the benefit of polymer vs fiberglass for it, lots of them use cedar cabinets and yes, it is a great wood but not when you jazz it up with rails and extrusions to allow moisture and debris to collect, that promotes deterioration. As far as you metal cabinet goes, I'm dying to see how long it lasts without a very heavy powder coat or at least being repainted. Thermo lock insulation is nothing new but setting it up to fail as I explained in my earlier post is ridiculous! BTW, who solicited and paid for the energy studies that you guys did? Oh, that's right, it was Arctic. I can't imagine how they found the study weighed in your favor when you paid them for it!

Your spas do look cool and your pitch is very believable as long as no one challenges it or has any engineering sense.

I know much more about your company and your product than you think, that’s why I struggle with your pitch so much.  As a director of sales and marketing for your company I expect you to defend the product but as a competitor that has to deprogram many customers from the "stories” expect me to pick it apart.....

Perhaps you should tout your product more on the SS website with James, you guys seem to have a lot in common. Better yet maybe you can find a place at Blue Falls for him as an engineer and you can add the DAIT to your spas.

I’m sorry if I sound snide but I really don’t like Arctic’s consumer confusing pitch.

[Tman122]

Our product makes sense.  Recovering the waste heat from the motors makes sense.  Having access to repair the spa in the event of a problem makes sense.  Having a floor on your spa makes sense.  Having a cover that can handle a heavy snow load, insulates better and doesn't absorb water as easy makes sense.  Making your spa shell thicker and stronger so that it will last longer makes sense.  Building a cabinet with sturdy materials, like Cedar and extruded Aluminum, so they last longer makes sense.  

There are at least two studies that prove our method of insulation is effective.  There is countless anecdotal data supporting the quality of our product.

It seems obvious too me that you don't really know our product that well.  You should do more research.

The thing I hate about the Arctic pitch is they are trying to make it sound like they are the only ones that 1. utilize waste heat from the pump motor 2. have access to the plumbing to make leaks easier to fix. 3. have a shell made from fiberglass backed acrylic. 4. insulates better. 5 have a thicker cover. 6 are energy effiecient.

All these things are available on many many brands, not just Arctic. So tell me again what there advantage is.

Tell me also about the heat loss during the 16 hours (most) a day the tub is not producing motor heat?

Get your facts straight before you read us a pitch taught to you during a sales conference!!!!!

[Steve]

I only have one question... What good do your comments do for the image of our industry?

Yeh I agree... comments like "Our method of insulating a spa is more efficient" makes a joke out of industry doesn't it? :-/

BTW JPKeirstead, that was your quote!  

Can you say BRAINWASHED boys and girls?

Steve  

[poolboy34]

Brainwashed?!?!?!?!?!?  Isn't that being a tad bit kind???  These arctic sales guys are like a CULT!  They preach that hell, fire and brimstone will rain down on you if buy any product OTHER then theirs.  I dunno, in all of the sales training seminars I've been too, all the manufacturers always say NOT to use scare tactics nor badmouth the competition.  And yes the way Arctic pitches their product does hurt our industry.