Order new tub With Circulation pump -or- Without? Why or Why Not?

[CanadianSpaTech]

 It goes without saying that I will still be diligent about testing and balancing w/ my Taylor kit, but now feel great about not spending another $2k to order a New Bullfrog to get their programable Circ. pump. Woo Hoo! I need to figure this chemical and balancing stuff out soon. It is possible my tub might be able to be delivered in two days!!! 


 I have customers that test everyday and add this and that and this and that and spa in a chem bath. K.I.S.S. Keep it simple stupid... Test 1x per week unless you have a noticeable issue. Clean filters weekly... biweekly at most and soak in filter wash every 6 weeks. Use Spa Shock to control organics and use proper sanitization chlorine granule (not pucks) or Bromine. Lock in your alkalinity first and then adjust your PH next.  If it looks clean and clear and smells clean your good. JMO

[Davekro]

I appreciate your experience and perspective. I am a big believer in KISS. That being said, the tendency to be pulled towards the dark side (ADHD/ OCD ;o).. can be strong in this one! LOL So I am glad to get these words of experience and wisdom. I will aspire to heed them.

And a huge thank you again. Your link to JoyfullNoise's description of How the EOS system functions was music to my indecisive mind after literally just committing to the B'frog spa w/ EOS ozone and no Circ pump. I read it outside the B'frog dealer after making my purchase. Quoting the most reverent Rickie Bobby from Talladega Nights https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0415306/... "Thank you baby Jesus!" 

[CanadianSpaTech]

 Removed

[BullFrogSpasMN]

https://www.troublefreepool.com/threads/installing-an-eos-ozone-generator-in-a-bullfrog-r7-hot-tub.267293/

Thank you @CanadianSpaTech ! Post #14 by JoyfulNoise (TFP Expert) on the thread you linked speaks very specifically to how ozone should and should not be used in a hot tub. Since I literally just put $17,000 cash down on the counter of my Bullfrog dealer to buy my A6L Select trim level with Bullfrog's EOS (Enhanced Ozone System). I have been asking on this forum and PSF forum for specifically how long one should run 'regular ozone generator vs. the EOS ozone which mixes ozone with the water in an enclosed chamber, at a MUCH higher concentration than the standard ozone generators that just blow the ozone bubbles into the spa and only react with the spa water for as long as it takes for the bubbles to rise from the bottom to the surface. Then that ozone bubble hits the surface and creates the 'ozone cloud' which is I assume what causes deterioration of the cover and headrests.

Part of JoyfulNoise's comments in that thread post #14:
"There are right ways to use ozone and very wrong ways to use it."

"Ozone should be applied as a supplemental oxidizer to chlorine or bromine. It should be applied for only a period of time that it has an actual effect (removal of CCs) and then it should be stopped. Ozone is a very powerful oxidizer that will quickly degrade plastics, cause corrosion of metal parts and is a powerful respiratory irritant that can trigger asthma attacks in vulnerable people. It’s something that should be used sparingly and with proper engineering controls to ensure that people aren’t breathing it in. "

"The EOS system mentioned above actually uses ozone the correct way - it utilizes a contact tank to treat water slowly and then any residual ozone is released through a blow off valve attached to an active charcoal filter that will neutralize the ozone and turn it back into harmless oxygen gas. In this case, only water in the contact tank gets treated and sent back into the spa. The unit generates 100 grams per hour of ozone which is actually quite high. It [EOS] only needs to be run for a few hours to destroy bather waste and then it can be shut off and a chlorine residual can be reestablished. This is the correct way to apply ozone to a hot tub. In the past, tub makers would simply put an ozone generator on one of the recirculation lines and then just power it up when the tub was in standby mode and presumably covered. That method over utilizes ozone which then will destroy chlorine as it builds up. It also causes rapid wear and tear on the CD ozone generator which will quickly fail within a year from constant use. "

That part in red answers the question that remained unanswered after days of asking in forums and Googling the question. THANK YOU CanadianSpaTech!!! Now I feel great that the default 2 hours, 2x/day will give the A6L's ≈ 400 gallons of water plenty of ozone treatment. It goes without saying that I will still be diligent about testing and balancing w/ my Taylor kit, but now feel great about not spending another $2k to order a New Bullfrog to get their programable Circ. pump. Woo Hoo! I need to figure this chemical and balancing stuff out soon. It is possible my tub might be able to be delivered in two days!!! 

Question: What chemical do I need to use to lower the hardness after I fill the tub (and before I turn the heat on)? I think that is lowering the calcium?? A recommeded brand and name of the chemical, or even a link would be most helpful.
Thanks in advance,
Dave

There's no chemical that will effectively lower calcium, you'll need access to a soft water source via a home water softener or a portable water softener like this: https://hottubstore.com/product/caldera-on-the-go-portable-water-softener/

The water in my store is very hard so I use the portable softener when I fill my tubs and usually do a 50/50 hard/soft mix to get around a 125-150 ppm level.

[Davekro]

There's no chemical that will effectively lower calcium, you'll need access to a soft water source via a home water softener or a portable water softener like this: https://hottubstore.com/product/caldera-on-the-go-portable-water-softener/

The water in my store is very hard so I use the portable softener when I fill my tubs and usually do a 50/50 hard/soft mix to get around a 125-150 ppm level.

Today I tested the TA and Ph of the water from my tap. TA was 370 and PH was 7.8.  In my small town, most people use water softeners, mine died maybe ten years ago. ≈5 years ago, I bought a preowned, but never hooked up salt based soft water set up and about 4 bags of salt, but never got around to hooking it up. Being in the basement, it is out of sight out of mind. Back then I had even made plans to install whole house filters as too. I know those notes are buried somewhere. LOL So NOW I have a reason to put 'install water softener back on my to-do list.' It certainly won't happen for the first fill of the new tub! To bring down TA hopefully to 50-70 ppm, do you think the process of: 1) adding acid to decrease PH; 2) run aeration to increase PH; 3) retest TA... Repeat steps 1 thru 3 until I get TA to 50-70 ppm is doable within a reasonable amount of repeating this process?

 I am in the office coffee business and have used 12" long Omnipure inline "softening" cartridges 1/4" in/out .5 GPM flow to reduce scale for coffee brewers. Do you think this dinky 12" 1/4" in/out filter which would theoretically add 200 gallons in ≈ 7 hours at it's spec'd 1/2 GPM from the tiny 1/4" in/out would be worth trying? I guess I could adapt it to my hose, start the .5 GPM flow into the tub, test the CH after about 30 minutes, then again 2 hours later to see if it is still delivering low CH water from the hose into the tub. Actually, it would be an interesting experiment to see its performance over 'X' gallons of water to know how well it is protecting my coffee equipment. Nothing to lose with the experiment, and maybe I'll get enough soft water to get a reasonable TA & PH, who knows.

You like to get 125 -150 ppm CH or TA?

[CanadianSpaTech]

Using softened water can create it's own set of issues. More research for you. Use a stain and scale remover to sequester metals in the water. If you use a water treatment like Spa Marvel or Spa Solution then you don't need a stain and scale remover. 

[BullFrogSpasMN]

There's no chemical that will effectively lower calcium, you'll need access to a soft water source via a home water softener or a portable water softener like this: https://hottubstore.com/product/caldera-on-the-go-portable-water-softener/

The water in my store is very hard so I use the portable softener when I fill my tubs and usually do a 50/50 hard/soft mix to get around a 125-150 ppm level.

Today I tested the TA and Ph of the water from my tap. TA was 370 and PH was 7.8.  In my small town, most people use water softeners, mine died maybe ten years ago. ≈5 years ago, I bought a preowned, but never hooked up salt based soft water set up and about 4 bags of salt, but never got around to hooking it up. Being in the basement, it is out of sight out of mind. Back then I had even made plans to install whole house filters as too. I know those notes are buried somewhere. LOL So NOW I have a reason to put 'install water softener back on my to-do list.' It certainly won't happen for the first fill of the new tub! To bring down TA hopefully to 50-70 ppm, do you think the process of: 1) adding acid to decrease PH; 2) run aeration to increase PH; 3) retest TA... Repeat steps 1 thru 3 until I get TA to 50-70 ppm is doable within a reasonable amount of repeating this process?

 I am in the office coffee business and have used 12" long Omnipure inline "softening" cartridges 1/4" in/out .5 GPM flow to reduce scale for coffee brewers. Do you think this dinky 12" 1/4" in/out filter which would theoretically add 200 gallons in ≈ 7 hours at it's spec'd 1/2 GPM from the tiny 1/4" in/out would be worth trying? I guess I could adapt it to my hose, start the .5 GPM flow into the tub, test the CH after about 30 minutes, then again 2 hours later to see if it is still delivering low CH water from the hose into the tub. Actually, it would be an interesting experiment to see its performance over 'X' gallons of water to know how well it is protecting my coffee equipment. Nothing to lose with the experiment, and maybe I'll get enough soft water to get a reasonable TA & PH, who knows.

You like to get 125 -150 ppm CH or TA?

TA: 50-80 ppm (your process for lowering TA is correct, you'll need to lower it in 'steps')
pH: 7.2-7.8
CH: 125-150

Also make sure you address any Iron or Copper issues by using a pre-filter for the hose followed by 1 of a dozen or more products that are available to remove metal from the water, you're dealer will have something if needed, most include these products in a startup kit to the customer.

[The Wizard of Spas]

Possibly too late on this but to steer the topic back to the original question - There is a myriad of reasons a company may or may not use a circulation pump, and a myriad of pros and cons to a circulation pump that you would consider when making your purchase. I want to convey that this is written in good faith and not meant to cast a positive or negative light on any brand, but merely to help inform.

Factors in whether a circ pump is available on a hot tub from the point of view of a manufacturer:

-The pack(s) that a brand uses will play a role, possibly the biggest role. More relays = more price for the pack (pack = motherboard and heater). There is 1 relay needed per speed of a motor. Most brands use a 3 relay pack on lower to mid-range tubs. If the spa has (say) 2 pumps, one pump with a single speed and dual speed pump, that is 3 relays. If a circ pump is added on, the hot tub manufacturer will either need to buy a bigger pack (more money) or may buy an extension for the pack or hardwire direct. This typically is where continuous flow vs programmable comes in (if hardwired direct it will run 24/7, whereas programmable can run any length of time you deem fit) and why these terms exist.

-Sometimes the build of the tub limits the volume of "stuff" you can put in a tub. Brands might be able to physically have only X number of pumps / packs b/c there simply is only so much space inside the spa's cabin. Plumbing, height of the seats, how they install insulation, etc. all factor into this.

-Price *always* factors in. Can they buy these items and then sell tubs for the price they want? How much extra plumbing / labor is involved? Not saying it is the main factor, but it is always a factor.

-Does the supplier have a quality circulation pump? No hot tub brands make their own packs / pumps / controls / etc. so they have to buy them from a supplier. Not all suppliers are equal, and suppliers also offer varying quality (just like hot tub brands offer varying qualities of products). These are some of the factors involved.

In terms of pros and cons of a circ pump, its incredibly nuanced and requires lots of detailed review to understand the entire scope.

PRO CIRC PUMP

A standard therapy pump linked to the heater will pull "X" amps during its low speed / heat cycle and the circ pump tends to pull much less amperage and that can translate into energy savings. The circ pump takes a lot of stress off of the pump that the heater is linked to. The pump that is linked to the heater will start / stop all day long engage the heat process and to filter the water. This start / stop stress is why (in a 2 pump system) the pump linked to the heater always dies out faster than the second pump, so your therapy pump(s) are lasting longer when a circ pump is involved. The circ pump also allows for the user to sit in the tub w/o out the water coming out of the jets. This is for sure an intangible that may not be important factor but some users prefer to sit in the water with the jets off (or sit in the water after the 20 min massage and just relax). The circ pump will take the heater and filter off of the main pump / first pump and in theory will increase it's efficiency in terms of water delivery since the heat tube (a bottle neck in the plumbing) and the filter system (an impediment to the flow of water) are no longer present. A circ pump will also have a lower flow of water running through the heater chamber and can allow for a smaller heater to be used. A 4.0kW heater will pull less energy than the 5.5kW and will last longer as it is under less stress and then costs less to replace. These are some of the reasons why you could consider a circ pump.

ANTI CIRC PUMP

You had to buy a circ pump and all of the costs associated with it. To the buyer it is a flat price that is folded into the cost of the initial spa purchase. Thus, you are starting at a negative in terms of cost and trying to make up any savings based on the energy consumption on a per-month basis. Once you are on the other side of that - and that is *if* that happens (too many variables to calculate specifically so the length of time it takes is relative and a per-case basis, and I am not implying that you will never make that up nor that it will or will not take a long time, just outlining all factors), eventually the pump will need to be replaced. That plus the labor to replace said pump. So again you have to start from a negative and work your way back to zero. Additionally, there are some brands that use notoriously poor circ pumps which is more fodder for the anti-circ pump sales pitch. These are some reason why you could consider not buying a circ pump

I will shy away from filtration rates, etc. b/c of the factors involved that are too convoluted to truly flesh out the reasons why you would or would not want a circ pump. Ask anyone in this forum that truly understands hot tubs and they will tell you that if your water is green, the filter rate (and filter for that matter) will not turn it clear and let you know that this is all about water chemistry and that is 100% the user, not the brand. Or to put it another way - filter rate is probably towards the bottom of why you would or would not buy a circ pump.

I hope this helps. Good luck moving forward. 

[Malcom Turn]

I've been wondering the same thing! From what I've gathered, the circulation pump helps keep the water cleaner and more evenly mixed with chemicals. Without it, you might need to run the jets longer on low speed to get the same effect, which could use up more energy.

As for Bullfrog spas, it's weird they don't include it standard, but maybe they figure most folks won't miss it? If you're keen on getting one, it might be worth adding as an option, especially if you plan to use the spa a lot. You could always ask the dealer about adding it in and see what they say!