Order new tub With Circulation pump -or- Without? Why or Why Not?

[Davekro]

Circulation Pump or NO circulation Pump, that is the question.

In my search of this site I did not find a thread that discussed the Pros and Cons if you should order your hot tub with or without a Circulation Pump, assuming your tub has an ozone generator which I'd assume needs to run for longer periods than just two or three 2-hour cleaning sessions per day. I may be wrong. I want to learn basically: 1) How many hours per day a low speed Jet pump should run on average for effective cleaning. 2) If there is no Circ. pump, ≈ how many hours per day should the Jet pump (lower rpm of course) to take advantage of the ozone generator to get enough ozone into the water to be effective at its job?

Why are Circ. Pumps NOT in ANY Bullfrog spas, any Trim Level, only offered as Optional? I may be buying -or- ordering a new Bullfrog A6L or A7L. Am I wrong to think it would be an important thing to add? Why or why not?

I am new to the modern hot tubs, but it would seem they would include a Circ. pump in at least their Plus or Select trim levels. They are not that expensive to add. Bullfrog must feel they really add marginal value, or even have a downside??

One dealer I spoke to said they have their wet floor model A9L set to run every 30 mins. I don't recall for how long. It makes sense that for the ozone generator to be of much use, it has to run more than say 2 hours twice a day. I wonder for how long and how many times per day the default Bullfrog software runs one of the Jet pumps on the low pressure to circulate for cleaning and infusing ozone into the water?

[Davekro]

I think this topic would be very good to have a write-up on in the

Hot Tub Buying Guide

Just my 2 cents. 

[cranbiz]

I'm in the have a circulation pump corner. The idea of running my main pump just to move water around when not in use just doesn't make sense to me if you can equip a tub with a small pump to do that.

Why BullFrog only offers them as an option, I don't know. It was a consideration when I bought my tub.

[Davekro]

Cranbiz,
In addition to being able to schedule your Circ. Pump to run 24/7, or 'X' hours 'X' times per day, are you –ALSO– able to schedule one of your Jet Pumps to also able to run 'X' hours 'X' times per day?  What brand, model, ≈ year is your hot tub?

I understand that some brand of hot tubs use very low GPM Circ pumps. Maybe only running 24/7 (w/ no option for fewer hours?).
I read that Bullfrog and many brands use a larger GPM flow rate Circ. Pump. I think I read 7x the GPM of the super low GPM Circs.

I ask about if Bullfrog can 'schedule' both the Circ. & a Jet Pump to be doing filtering, not necessarily programmed for the same hours to run. I am pretty sure I want to get a Circ. Pump on my soon-to-be new Bullfrog. But I'm reading that the stronger GPM flow of the Jet Pump (on low speed) pulls residues and particles floating on the surface that even the higher GPM Circ pumps can not draw into the filter. The best of both worlds would be to be able to schedule the Jet Pump filtration maybe 30-60 mins/ per night, or have a button that runs for the Jet pump filter for an hour or so, right after you get out. That would be a great feature.

[cranbiz]

I have an Island Spa (Artesian) Nevis that I bought in 2021.

My circulation pump is available 24/7 but only actually runs when the temperature needs attention. My tub has 2 single speed pumps in addition to the circulation pump. I cannot program either pump to run as a circulation pump nor do I see the need to.

Yes, I can schedule filter cycles that use the main pumps. My current schedule is 2X a day for 2 hours. That has worked really well for keeping the spa clean and the chemicals well balanced.

[Davekro]

My circulation pump is available 24/7 but only actually runs when the temperature needs attention.

My understanding of a 24/7 Circ. pump is that it litterally runs 24/7 regardless heating cycles, and only temporarily shuts down when you are in the tub and running the main Jet pumps. I could be wrong. My 1982 bare bones hot tub had only one pump. For heating it would run on a low speed.

 

My tub has 2 single speed pumps in addition to the circulation pump. I cannot program either pump to run as a circulation pump nor do I see the need to.

Interesting. Are your two 'single speed' pumps both high speed? So each powers half the jets at high speed and your jet control is simply: "On"(high speed)/"Off", as opposed Low/ High/ Off? Or is one a low RPM and the other a high RPM pump?

Yes, I can schedule filter cycles that use the main pumps. My current schedule is 2X a day for 2 hours.

So your Jet Pump filter cycle runs at the same (high) speed/pressure through all jets as when you are soaking and using the jets?

[cranbiz]

A 24/7 circulation pump means it will run when needed without your control. Not to worry, I thought the same as you when I first got my tub.

Yes, my main pumps would be considered high speed. When i turn on the jets, they are one flow from the pump. I control intensity with either the diverter valve or at the face of the jet.

Correct, the filter cycle runs everything at the only available speed I have.

[BullFrogSpasMN]

My circulation pump is available 24/7 but only actually runs when the temperature needs attention.

My understanding of a 24/7 Circ. pump is that it litterally runs 24/7 regardless heating cycles, and only temporarily shuts down when you are in the tub and running the main Jet pumps. I could be wrong. My 1982 bare bones hot tub had only one pump. For heating it would run on a low speed.

 

My tub has 2 single speed pumps in addition to the circulation pump. I cannot program either pump to run as a circulation pump nor do I see the need to.

Interesting. Are your two 'single speed' pumps both high speed? So each powers half the jets at high speed and your jet control is simply: "On"(high speed)/"Off", as opposed Low/ High/ Off? Or is one a low RPM and the other a high RPM pump?

Yes, I can schedule filter cycles that use the main pumps. My current schedule is 2X a day for 2 hours.

So your Jet Pump filter cycle runs at the same (high) speed/pressure through all jets as when you are soaking and using the jets?

Not all circ pumps run 24/7, some companies like Bullfrog use a larger circulation pump that is programmable, what you will program it for will depend on a few things..how often are you using it, what type of climate you are in, what type of water care system you are using, etc.

If you are going to be using the @ease water-care system from Bullfrog I would just add it and also add the WellSpring ozone, that makes for a really nice overall system to maintain the water in the spa, you will have your mineral cartridge, @ease chlorine cartridge and ozone all doing the work which makes for a really nice 'low chemical' system imo.

[Davekro]

I WAS thinking I really wanted the programmable BF Circ. pump, but since they are strictly an option on all A series trim levels, so you must order and spec a new spa to get it, I felt I'd be OK w/o it. That maybe programming the low speed jet pump to run x minutes an hour would hopefully be able to make full use of the EOS's ozone cleaning capability. If my assumption is true, what kind of filtration (and hence EOS ozone circulation), would you say might be good?

I wanna ask if I should hold out and just order an A6Lwith a (programmable) Circ pump, and wait a month or two to get my spa -and- miss out on a significant floor model discount (on this 2 month old dry 'floor model')..... But then I think: "For SOME reason, Bullfrog does not think Circ pumps are worth putting stock in any-of-their-spas. So I question my strong desire for one...

[Ripper238]

A smaller dedicated circulating pump will conserve power and run quieter rather than running the larger jet pumps. The programmable porton depends on the control unit.

[Tman122]

Also consider a jet pump can move more water in 4 hours per day than a circ pump for 24. So I'm not sure the energy savings, if any, produces the same results?

[Davekro]

@BullFrogSpasMN ,
Thank you for the thoughts on Circ pump + Wellspring (regular) ozone generator. Since my original post, I have now committed to buying a 2023 A6L Select floor model. It has the EOS ozone system and no Circ. pump.

My initial post was trying to determine how many hours per day the EOS OZONE GENERATOR System needed to run per day for it to clean the best it is designed to.

My yet to arrive A6L will have just the Jet pump #1's low speed circulation (NOT a Circ. pump or Wellspring) to distribute the EOS System's OZONE into the water during its 2 hours, 2 x/ day default filter schedule plus whenever the thermostat call for heating. With the theoretical 'double the Ozone production of the EOS System' over regular ozone generators (like Wellspring), is this ozone system cleaning to its capacity? –OR– should the Jet pump filtration times be set for 'X' minutes every hour, every two hours or what ever to maximize getting as much ozone infused into the spa water to do it's best cleaning?

I understand there are many variables. Colder climates will run heating filtration more time than, say, the northern Calif. climate I am in. Occupancy and usage: Mostly just my wife and I probably daily. Of course, I'll need to keep on top of the PH, alkalinity, and initial fill hardness balance as well as the Bromine or Chlorine* level. Is there even any way to tell if your water is getting enough Ozone infused into the spa water to be its most effective?

In the Chlorine/ Bromine debate, I am probably going with Bromine.
Are the floating Frog type Mineral/ Bromine (or chlorine?) systems more or less called for or useful when running the EOS Enhance Ozone System (w/ Jet pump filtration, not Circ. pump)? Any opinions of using
I guess I should look at my municipal company's water supply report to get a sense of the copper & other mineral content of my water.

@Tman122 and @Ripper238 ,
Thanks for your comments. I am familiar with the stronger filtration via the Jet Pump vs. the varying lower GPM Circ. pump filtration speeds. I have no concern about any difference in energy use (have solar) between Circ. pump vs. Jet pump filtering. My sole question is how do I maximize the Ozone infusion day to day given my having  the Bullfrog Enhance Ozone System (EOS), strictly running when Jet filtration, and/or heating is running.

[CanadianSpaTech]

https://www.troublefreepool.com/threads/installing-an-eos-ozone-generator-in-a-bullfrog-r7-hot-tub.267293/

[Ripper238]

Also consider a jet pump can move more water in 4 hours per day than a circ pump for 24. So I'm not sure the energy savings, if any, produces the same results?

You have to also heat the water rather than just move as much as you can as quick as you can to keep it clean. Dedicated circulating pumps pull under 200 watts, prevent stagnant water and heat more consistently over time. You can always run your full power jets for extra filtration, even program that in.

Just my thoughts.

[Davekro]

https://www.troublefreepool.com/threads/installing-an-eos-ozone-generator-in-a-bullfrog-r7-hot-tub.267293/

Thank you, @CanadianSpaTech ! Post #14 by JoyfulNoise (TFP Expert) on the thread you linked speaks very specifically to how ozone should and should not be used in a hot tub. Since I literally just put $17,000 cash down on the counter of my Bullfrog dealer to buy my A6L Select trim level with Bullfrog's EOS (Enhanced Ozone System). I have been asking on this forum and PSF forum for specifically how long one should run 'regular ozone generator vs. the EOS ozone which mixes ozone with the water in an enclosed chamber, at a MUCH higher concentration than the standard ozone generators that just blow the ozone bubbles into the spa and only react with the spa water for as long as it takes for the bubbles to rise from the bottom to the surface. Then that ozone bubble hits the surface and creates the 'ozone cloud' which is I assume what causes deterioration of the cover and headrests.

Part of JoyfulNoise's comments in that thread, post #14:
"There are right ways to use ozone and very wrong ways to use it."

"Ozone should be applied as a supplemental oxidizer to chlorine or bromine. It should be applied for only a period of time that it has an actual effect (removal of CCs) and then it should be stopped. Ozone is a very powerful oxidizer that will quickly degrade plastics, cause corrosion of metal parts and is a powerful respiratory irritant that can trigger asthma attacks in vulnerable people. It’s something that should be used sparingly and with proper engineering controls to ensure that people aren’t breathing it in. "

"The EOS system mentioned above actually uses ozone the correct way - it utilizes a contact tank to treat water slowly and then any residual ozone is released through a blow off valve attached to an active charcoal filter that will neutralize the ozone and turn it back into harmless oxygen gas. In this case, only water in the contact tank gets treated and sent back into the spa. The unit generates 100 grams per hour of ozone, which is actually quite high. It [EOS] only needs to be run for a few hours to destroy bather waste, and then it can be shut off and a chlorine residual can be reestablished. This is the correct way to apply ozone to a hot tub. In the past, tub makers would simply put an ozone generator on one of the recirculation lines and then just power it up when the tub was in standby mode and presumably covered. That method over utilizes ozone, which then will destroy chlorine as it builds up. It also causes rapid wear and tear on the CD ozone generator, which will quickly fail within a year from constant use. "

That part in red answers the question that remained unanswered after days of asking in forums and Googling the question. THANK YOU CanadianSpaTech!!! Now I feel great that the default 2 hours, 2x/day will give the A6L's 310 gallons of water plenty of ozone treatment. It goes without saying that I will still be diligent about testing and balancing w/ my Taylor kit, but now feel great about not spending another $2k to order a New Bullfrog to get their programmable Circ. Pump. Woo Hoo! I need to figure this chemical and balancing stuff out soon. It is possible my tub might be able to be delivered in two days!!! 

Question: What chemical do I need to use to lower the hardness after I fill the tub (and before I turn the heat on)? I think that is lowering the calcium?? A recommended brand and name of the chemical, or even a link would be most helpful.
Thanks in advance,
Dave