ETL Listing

[Chris_H]

Hello Everyone,

I know I should ignore this guy, but earlier this week I was having an ongoing conversation with The Spa Specialist.  It started with The Spa Specialist stating that a Hotspring Vista had an unsafe 6000 watt heater.  I kindly reminded him that the Vista had a 4000 watt heater.  Unfortunately, it ended up with The Spa Specialist ranting about the Hotspring product.  

However, it came to my attention today that all of my posts and replies this week were deleted.  They were deleted because I questioned The Spa Specialist about his usage of the ETL (Electronic Testing Laboratories) safety logos.  

If you didn’t know already, The Spa Specialist purchases spas from “Phoenix Spas”, an ETL listed company, and makes “upgrades” to these spas by changing the pumps and insulation, among other things.  These “upgrades” would automatically nullify the ETL listing from Phoenix Spas.

After these “upgrades” are made The Spa Specialist does not have ETL test his changes.  I would like the consumer to draw it’s own conclusions about this disregard for safety.

For general knowledge I have attached a few links:

If you are concerned about your manufacturer’s products electrical safety listing, please see the attached link and do a search.  You will notice that all major spa and hottub manufacturers are ETL listed.

http://etlwhidirectory.etlsemko.com/WebClients/ITS/DLP/products.nsf/$$Search?OpenForm

If you are interested you can also request ETL to do a field investigation via this link if you notice a company that may be improperly displaying the ETL logo for electrical safety.

http://www.intertek-etlsemko.com/pls/cust_portal/docs/PAGE/ITK_PGR/DOCUMENTS_PROD_PG/FIELD_INVESTIGATION_REQUEST.PDF

Also, if you were wondering if I have too much time on my hands.  I think you already know that answer.

Chris H

[salesdvl]

Very interesting Chris.  thanks.

[Dr. Spa™ Ret.]

Noticed the thread gone this morning.. Around here we assumed it was again due to Hot Spring's legal department  

Pity, I hadn't gotten that much entertainment for a while and was eagerly waiting for the next post  

[stuart]

Noticed the thread gone this morning.. Around here we assumed it was again due to Hot Spring's legal department  

Pity, I hadn't gotten that much entertainment for a while and was eagerly waiting for the next post  

I'm with you Doc, I was enjoying the barrage! Chris was doing a great job...

[Brewman]

It's a catch 22 for him, and he dodges it at every opportunity.  

The ONLY way the Phoenix ETL or UL listing is legitimate for a Cavein spa is if he did nothing to the spas after Phoenix assembled them.  But he brags about how innovative his spas are, so this scenario can't really be true.  His innovations are bogus as well, but that's another story.

If he changes the Phoenix spas after he gets them, then the ETL or UL listings on them is null and void, since they were certified before he changed them.  
At the very least he puts the non tested DAIT contraption on his spas.  God knows what else he changes.  

The only other way this could pan out would be if he submits his spas to ETL or UL for testing as he sells them.
I doubt very much he does.  He'd be bragging about it for months if it was true.  

What I wonder is what Phonix would do to a one of his unfortunate victims if his business ever went bankrupt.

Bet they woulnd't honor the original Phoenix warranty.
Brewman

 

[Chas]

If he changes the Phoenix spas after he gets them, then the ETL or UL listings on them is null and void, since they were certified before he changed them.  
At the very least he puts the non tested DAIT contraption on his spas.  God knows what else he changes.

Very true. It's amazing that he will claim HotSpring "lost it's UL listing," even going so far as to claim having a hand in it - all untrue of course - when his pants are unzipped on the safety issue.

Puzzling. Very puzzling.

[rocket]

Very true. It's amazing that he will claim HotSpring "lost it's UL listing," even going so far as to claim having a hand in it - all untrue of course - when his pants are unzipped on the safety issue.

Puzzling. Very puzzling.

Are you suggesting that his zipper isn't ETL or UL approved?

[Yorag]

Okay, I did a search for several major spa manufacturers at:

[link] http://etlwhidirectory.etlsemko.com/WebClients/ITS/DLP/products.nsf/$$Search?OpenForm [/link]

Big surprise, but I didn't find Cal Spas in there for their spas. They are listed for "outdoor cooking gas appliances".

No listing for Coast Spas, they are built in Canada I believe.

Didn't find anything for: Caldera, Dimension 1, Arctic or Hot Springs either.

[Chas]

Didn't find anything for: Caldera, Dimension 1, Arctic or Hot Springs either.

I did a quick search and found these listings, I know there are more:

Ozone Generator, Model No. S/N-OA.

Portable Spas, Model Nos. L, LH, M, N, Y, Z, PC, MHC, PHC.

Self Contained Spa, Model Nos. Hot Spot 1998, Solana. Hot Springs Series, Model Nos. H, I, J may be followed by additional suffix letters and/or numbers. Tiger River Series, Model Nos. M, N may be followed by additional suffix letters and/or numbers. Highland Series, Model Nos. Cascade, Oasia, Olympia, Teton. Paradise Series, Model Nos. Geneva, Hawaiian, Kauai, Martinique, Niagara, Tahitian. Utopia Series, Model Nos. Geneva, Niagara, Tahitian.

I searched under WATKINS MANUFACTURING CORP. - Vista, CA USA

[poolboy34]

If you look up each manufacturer by name, you'll find listings for Dimension One, hot Springs, caldera....etc.  Almost all of the spas I've seen have the ul and/or ETL listing posted inside the main access panel.  I know it is listed inside D-1's and caldera's cabinetry, so i would assume that that would be the case with Tiger river and hot spring as well.

[Tman122]

If you look up each manufacturer by name, you'll find listings for Dimension One, hot Springs, caldera....etc.  Almost all of the spas I've seen have the ul and/or ETL listing posted inside the main access panel.  I know it is listed inside D-1's and caldera's cabinetry, so i would assume that that would be the case with Tiger river and hot spring as well.

That's the problem it is also listed inside of the Phoenix cabinet when it leaves the factory and gets to JA's. Then he sells the tub to the general public whithout no modifications....right JA? Cause that's the only way the ETL listing on a Phoenix purchased from there factory would mean didly. I know you can slap as many UL listed parts inside that cabinet as you want but it does not make the unit as a whole listed.

[poolboy34]

Excelent observation Tman.................so that's how he gets away with it.   He's a sneaky one!  

[Dr. Spa™ Ret.]

hmmmmmmmmmmm, might Phoenix share in any responsibility if they know that he's making plumbing and electrical changes, which void and ELT and/or UL listing, and is still passing it off (or trying to pass off) as listed?

[Brewman]

Would be interesting to know what ETL or UL thinks of that particular practice.
You'd think that Phonix would not be putting the certification stickers on any of the spas that JA buys, unless of course he gets them the same exact way that the other Phoenix dealers get them- completely assembled and ready to install.

So what value does he add to the spa for taking a middle of the road spa and selling it at a premium price?
I know, it's the cost of the fan-n-foil.
Brewman

[Chris_H]

Hello again,

I am not going to the Aqua Show this year, but I know many of you will be attending.  

Can one of the attendees or exhibitors please get pictures of the Phoenix Spas controls, pump/motor, insulation, and heater?  We could then compare those pictures to the pictures on the Spa Specialist site to see what exactly is being changed.  Obviously, the plumbing would be difficult to accurately compare, but it is extremely easy to compare the components.  If you are wondering how you can get them to allow you to take pictures, just tell them you are a Hotspring/Sundace/D1 dealer.  They will bend over backwards to get their product next to one of those superior products.

If it takes me until the next Aqua Show to get pictures, I will get pictures.

I might be going overboard about taking pictures, but right now, I am a little bitter that my posts were deleted.  I guess I really offended him by skipping so many paragraphs at a time.  Jim, if you put my posts back up, I promise to read the rest of the paragraphs.  Earlier this week, I forgot to take my Attention Deficit Disorder medication.  I am fine now.

“hmmmmmmmmmmm, might Phoenix share in any responsibility if they know that he's making plumbing and electrical changes, which void and ELT and/or UL listing, and is still passing it off (or trying to pass off) as listed?”

Doc,
That was one of my original posts on his site.  I was asking him about his insurance.  If he makes changes he would be a manufacturer and if someone actually drowned in his spas he would be on the hook if the family sued.  Phoenix Spas would have a pretty good defense, in my opinion.  As many of you know, a retailer has much less legal liability than a manufacturer.  Especially in the swimming pool/spa business.  This has been proven many times in court.  One famous example was a “Doughboy Pool” case that, I believe, put Doughboy into bankruptcy.  The retailer was dismissed from the suit, but the manufacturer was found negligent.  If he is a manufacturer, but telling his insurance company he is just an Internet retailer that is a serious problem.  

Chris H