Oxidizers, sanitizers or both???

[windsurfdog]

I think most of us would agree that ozone and mineral introduction are effective secondary elements in hot tub water chemistry.  By mineral introduction, I refer to N2 or mineral filters (a la MasterSpas) or any other passive system that is normally installed in the filter compartment that depends upon water circulation for dispersment of payload.  By secondary elements, I believe we would also agree that ozone and mineral introduction cannot achieve effective sanitation on their own though they do contribute to lesser primary sanitizer/oxidizer levels.  I also think we would agree that any tub can be effectively sanitized/oxidized without both ozone and/or minerals.

If we "agree to agree" on the above, I pose this question:

Do ozone and minerals contribute to sanitation only, both sanitation and oxidation, or oxidation only.....and to what degree for each of the two?  Also, to what degree, if any, does each contribute to accelerate the depletion of free chlorine?

I ask these questions  because of the many comments made in threads that allude to the oxidation properties of ozone.  Most sales jargon that I have heard centers around sanitation and reduced sanitizer requirements.

Thanks in advance for taxing those vast, greatly convoluted masses of gray matter........

[HotTubMan]

Ozone is an oxidizer. Mineral introduction acts as a sanitizer. Both slow the depletion of free chlorine by eliminating organics through different precesses. Where I am going to fall short here is that I no not fully understand what happens to the organics once they come into contact with the mineral system. The ozone turns it into a gas. The chlorine thurns it into a chloramine (thereby requiring oxiding at another time). Not sure about the silver though. Damn Canadian government! Still waiting for approval after 10 years on that one.

I don't think anyone will be able to answer your "..to what degree, ...." questions.

HTM

[salesdvl]

I think most of us would agree... that...  in water ....I refer to any other passive system that is normally installed that depends on water...for dispersment of payload.... I believe we would also agree that ... on their own...they do contribute to lesser primary levels.  

...I pose this question:

...to what degree for each... , if any,... does each contribute to accelerate the depletion... of ... greatly convoluted masses of gray matter........
 

With a little creative editing we have....

A born politician.  

[poolboy34]

Ok first off, Ozone is an oxidizer that is up to 40 times more aggressive then chlorine at breaking down organic matter.  N2, spa frog, and Vision are silver catalyst mineral purifiers.  When in combination with ozone these can greatly reduce the amount or need for chlorine (and bromine when using the spa frog).  What the silver in the mineral cartridges does is they adhere to bacteria and break down the outer "walls" of the cells of the bacteria.  In a nutshell and without gretting into all of the scientific jargon, silver kills approximately 99% of all known bacteria and pathogens known to man including E-Coli.  And for the wiseguys out there the amount of silver in these cartridges falls within the US EPA's guidelines for acceptable levels of silver in drinking water.

We advise our D-1 customers to use a non-chlorine (MPS) spa shock when done using the spa.  Depending on use and number of bathers we recommend, as does D-1, to add a small amount of Di-Chlor in place of MPS as a shock treatment.  For all of our other spa customers (hawkeye, Caldera, Infinity, spa owners who didn't necessarily buy from us but aren't on Bromine) we recommend using the N2, and shock once a week with di-chlor, and after every use with MPS (or at the end of the day).  This works for our customers and certainly is not the be all end all to spa care as there are many routines and "programs" that work well.

Jason,
Store Manager for a D-1 & Caldera Dealer

[salesdvl]

 When in combination with ozone these can greatly reduce the amount or need for chlorine (and bromine when using the spa frog).

So are you saying that it isnt effective without ozone?

[windsurfdog]

Ok first off, Ozone is an oxidizer that is up to 40 times more aggressive then chlorine at breaking down organic matter.  N2, spa frog, and Vision are silver catalyst mineral purifiers.  When in combination with ozone these can greatly reduce the amount or need for chlorine (and bromine when using the spa frog).  What the silver in the mineral cartridges does is they adhere to bacteria and break down the outer "walls" of the cells of the bacteria.  In a nutshell and without gretting into all of the scientific jargon, silver kills approximately 99% of all known bacteria and pathogens known to man including E-Coli.  And for the wiseguys out there the amount of silver in these cartridges falls within the US EPA's guidelines for acceptable levels of silver in drinking water.

We advise our D-1 customers to use a non-chlorine (MPS) spa shock when done using the spa.  Depending on use and number of bathers we recommend, as does D-1, to add a small amount of Di-Chlor in place of MPS as a shock treatment.  For all of our other spa customers (hawkeye, Caldera, Infinity, spa owners who didn't necessarily buy from us but aren't on Bromine) we recommend using the N2, and shock once a week with di-chlor, and after every use with MPS (or at the end of the day).  This works for our customers and certainly is not the be all end all to spa care as there are many routines and "programs" that work well.

Jason,
Store Manager for a D-1 & Caldera Dealer

Jason,

Thanks for your comments.  Please clarify a couple of things.

You are saying then that N2 is a primary sanitizer?.....that no other sanitizer is needed save for a once-a-week shock with dichlor?  Since you are using MPS after each soak in conjunction with ozone, are you depending upon the dichlor "shock" for shocking or sanitization?  How 'bout using MPS for the once-a-week shock and thereby dispensing with dichlor altogether?  And how does a "a small amount of Di-Chlor in place of MPS as a shock treatment" work as a shock?  I was under the impression that a chlorine "break point" ppm had to be reached for dichlor to operate as an oxidizer....or is this only in environments where dichlor is used as a primary sanitizer?

Thanks in advance for your reply........

[tony]

I had tried using MPS before soaking and shocking with dichlor once per week, but could not keep my water clear.  This was one program my dealer recommended.  I went to shocking with dichlor twice per week with better results, but it seemed I was adding more dichlor than ever so I went back to a little dichlor after use and shock weekly.  I have always used either a spa frog or N2 cartridge with ozone.

[windsurfdog]

With a little creative editing we have....

A born politician.  

Whew!!!   Glad you edited and added the "creative editing" phrase.........I was about to gnaw another leg off.........

[salesdvl]

It's interesting how much the context can be changed by omitting words and adding...

[poolboy34]

alrighty, after reading through my post I admit it was a lil confusing and I must clarify a few things................I'm a lil groggy after watching all of this election stuff

First off When Nature 2, vision and/or Spa Frog are used in conjuntion with an ozonator, depending on how much you use the spa and how many people on average use the spa, you can ALMOST eliminate the need for the use of Di-Chlor as a shock or sanitizer.  Now that is not to say that these products aren't effective when used in spas that don't have an ozonator.  If a spa doesn't have an ozonator you will still have to use Di-Chlor/Bromine, just not as much as you would if you were solely using dichlor/bromine.  

Now......YES N2/Spa Frog/Vision can be used as a primary sanitizer.  (Yes i know there are posters who will disagree with that statement, but we've been using D-1's Vision as a sanitizer for over 10 years now, and have few problems) D-1 uses Vision as an alternative to chlorine/bromine.  Zodiac makes both the Vision cartridges for D-1 and the Nature 2 cartridges for watkins, sundance....etc...  

MPS is a shock treatment.  Shocking in a nutshell is adding a product to a spa/pool in order to oxidize waste.  Now I know what you're all thinking (I have esp ) , why do I need to add an oxidizer when I have ozone which is an oxidizer?  Spas are small bodies of water, they get contaminated very easily and quickly.  The shock treatment after you are done using the spa will help the spa recover faster, and also aid the water management system in sanitizing the spa.  Shock is basically a "booster" shot for the spa.  

D-Chlor or granular chlorine is BOTH a shock and a sanitizer.  In order for chlorine to be a shock the chlorine levels have to be raised above 8 PPM for a brief period of time.  

Now breakpoint chlorination.............this must be achieved when trying to rid a pool or spa of "combined Chlorine."  Combined chlorine is the by-product of chlorine molecules combining with amonia molecules.  These are more commonly known as chloramines.  Chloramines cause the chlorine odor to occur, they are also not good sanitizing.  Breakpoint chlorination is the amount of chlorine that must be added to the pool/spa in order to oxidize off the excess chloramines.  When breakpoint chlorination is achieved the free avaible chlorine in the pool/spa will be equal to the Total chlorine in the pool/spa.  

I know I'm over simplifying this & I can get more techical if you want, but you'll probably fall asleep before you finish reading my post.  I know this b/c when we train new employees they yawn quite a bit when reading through our training manuel  

And what's the moral of today's class kids?  KISS: Keep It Simple Stupid.  When using N2/Vision/Spa frog: Shock with mps when done using the spa, add a small amount of dichlor periodically if needed, and check the pH and alkalinity once every two weeks and make the necessary adjustments.  Oh and remember....less is more.  the less you add to the spa, the more time you can go between draining and refilling your private backyard oasis.  

Yup......opened up a can of worms on this one

If I'm still unclear on some things, please tell me and I'll clarify some more.

[windsurfdog]

poolboy,

Thanks for taking the time to compose your response--your explanation is very clear and thorough.

I understand your (D1's) regimen now and the role each part plays.  This helps my understanding of the role ozone and mineral filters play in my dichlor routine which, BTW, is resulting in crystal water for me.

I guess the only drawback to the Vision system is the dependancy upon the minerals as sanitizer when the minerals are nearly spent.  Continued use of the same regimen w/o mineral change would certainly result in unsanitized water as opposed to a regimen that uses dichlor as the primary sanitizer.  It would seem that it is much more important for one to regularly change the mineral system components in your routine opposed to a dichlor routine.

I would expect that either regimen, when properly maintained, would result in equally acceptable water.

Once again, thanks for your expertise!

[salesdvl]

Once again, thanks for your expertise!

 

yadda   yadda   yadda   or,  for you dyslexic folks:

adday   adday   adday

[poolboy34]

Right you are salesdvl.  D-1's vision needs to be changed every six months, and as most of us know Nature 2 and spa frog mineral packs need to be changed every 3-4 months.  We've found that after 6 months if the vision isn;t changed the water takes on a greenish tint.  Shocking will temporarily remove the tint, but it will come back after a couple hours. Also it should be noted that clarifiers, pH balancers, and stain & scale treatments should NOT be used while a mineral pack/cart./stick is being used.  These products should ONLY be used prior to adding the mineral cart/pack.  These products will bind up the minerals in the pack/cart and turn them into a solid brick, rendering them useless.  For customers using D-1's Vision pack we recommend placing the pack in a bowl of water when draining and refilling, b/c if the pack drys out after being wet it won't be as effective.

BTW salesdvl, you're hardly a newbie here, you have more posts then i do and I've been participating to this board for about a year now.  You are definilty a welcome addition to this "community."  This is the only board i contribute to, as the spasearch board tends to be way overloaded with highly biased dealers as well as everyones buddy from colorado.  This board is very professional.  That other board tends to end up being one large melee between dealers and sales reps.  

[salesdvl]

Well I was feeling good until you went and called me "professional"  

Seriously...thanks.  

At this time I would like to quote one of Hollywoods great actresses ( and not a half bad looking flying nun ) Sally Field and say " You like me, you really like me."

(( so much for being serious ))  but I do like contibuting to this board.  

[stuart]

poolboy,

Thanks for taking the time to compose your response--your explanation is very clear and thorough.

I understand your (D1's) regimen now and the role each part plays.  This helps my understanding of the role ozone and mineral filters play in my dichlor routine which, BTW, is resulting in crystal water for me.

I guess the only drawback to the Vision system is the dependancy upon the minerals as sanitizer when the minerals are nearly spent.  Continued use of the same regimen w/o mineral change would certainly result in unsanitized water as opposed to a regimen that uses dichlor as the primary sanitizer.  It would seem that it is much more important for one to regularly change the mineral system components in your routine opposed to a dichlor routine.

I would expect that either regimen, when properly maintained, would result in equally acceptable water.

Once again, thanks for your expertise!
 

Windy,
I'm confused, doesn't your Master spa use 2 EcoPure cartridges that need changing every 4 months or so?

Isn't this the same concept?