ozonator--what's the hype about?

[soclosetobuying]

I'm SO CLOSE to buying a sweetwater cayman after all my wet testing this weekend. do I need a cd ozonator? what are the benefits? is it bad for the environment or am I confusing this with the ozone layer?

[Chas]

Not bad for the environment.

Reduces the amount of other chems you have to add to keep the water safe. Ozone is an oxidizer, not a sanitizer, so you will have to add some type of sanitizer - just not as much.

[soclosetobuying]

thank you very much
I feel like it's a basic question--i appreciate the answer.

[HotTubMan]

Chas covered this, except the hype aspect. This is an option that is over sold on a lot of hot tubs. As Chas stated a sanitation regime is still required. Not sure about the SW ozone but I am not a big fan of ozone systems that run off of massage pumps. They tend to shorten the life of pillows and covers signifigantly. The least amount of ozone damage comes from a UV bulb (as opposed to CD) on a circ pump (as opposed to a massage pump on low). Ask the dealer "does this ozone system bypass when the jets are on high speed" if the answer is yes, it most likely will have negative affects that I mentioned.

Let the debate begin....

[Mendocino101]

I am not a big fan of ozone systems that run off of massage pumps. They tend to shorten the life of pillows and covers signifigantly. The least amount of ozone damage comes from a UV bulb (as opposed to CD)

Let the debate begin....

...how may I ask does a pump that runs about a 1/3 of the time that a circ pump does shorten the life....

[HotTubMan]

It has to do with how much "live ozone" is being injected into the tub. Ozone will live for 22 seconds in the water and 25 minutes in the air. The trick is not to allow the ozone to become air-born in the tub with the cover on. It does on most tubs and oxidizes the pillows and cover.

Some systems are better and contain the ozonated water in the plumbing longer, there fore minimizing the damage casued bt the ozone.

If you ask the manufacturer/dealer "Does the ozone bypass when the jets are on high speed" and the answer is "yes" then you know that this tub does inject live ozone into the tub. Underwriters Laboratories tells that manufacturer to bypass the ozone when jets are on high speed so that the consumer is not exposed to high levels of ozone (a carcinogen (excuse the spelling)). Manufacturers do not want to be exposing consumers to cancer causing agents for obvious reasons.

If enough ozone is being injected to warrant protection of the consumer while he/she is in the tub, it is safe to say that the ozonation occuring on low speed with the cover on will do no damage to pillows/covers? Dont get me wrong the consumer can do the same kind of damage by mismanaging chlorine/bromine levels, but that would be the customers fault.

[SerjicalStrike]

Don't most systems shut the ozone off if the customer turns the pumps on?  Or is that just Sundance?

George

[Starlight]

It has to do with how much "live ozone" is being injected into the tub. Ozone will live for 22 seconds in the water and 25 minutes in the air. The trick is not to allow the ozone to become air-born in the tub with the cover on. It does on most tubs and oxidizes the pillows and cover.

Some systems are better and contain the ozonated water in the plumbing longer, there fore minimizing the damage casued bt the ozone.

If you ask the manufacturer/dealer "Does the ozone bypass when the jets are on high speed" and the answer is "yes" then you know that this tub does inject live ozone into the tub. Underwriters Laboratories tells that manufacturer to bypass the ozone when jets are on high speed so that the consumer is not exposed to high levels of ozone (a carcinogen (excuse the spelling)). Manufacturers do not want to be exposing consumers to cancer causing agents for obvious reasons.

If enough ozone is being injected to warrant protection of the consumer while he/she is in the tub, it is safe to say that the ozonation occuring on low speed with the cover on will do no damage to pillows/covers? Dont get me wrong the consumer can do the same kind of damage by mismanaging chlorine/bromine levels, but that would be the customers fault.

I question the accuracy of some of your statements.  I have read several studies on the health effects of ozone as well as multiple safety data sheets from companies with gas expertise and none of them found ozone to be carcinogenic.  It is a known bronchial irritant and can be very problematic for those with asthma, diminished lung capacity, or ozone sensitivity.  I have also looked for good data on the half-life of ozone under spa-water conditions and have not been able to find much of anything, much less a definative 22 seconds.  It is not my intent to flame you, I just urge you to be cautious repeating information that does not have the weight of scientific review behind it.  Especially in boards such as this where many spa newcomers come looking for information I believe it is important not to alarm them unnecessarily--especially with information that is not really "fact".    Your other comments about ozone outgassing degrading pillows and covers *are* very well supported by evidence.  Some manufacturers claim to prevent  ozone gas from accumulating, but I am not qualified to comment on this.

Starlight

[Jordy]

Hello,
Actually "Starlight", according to the Hot Tub chemistry training I recieved from our chemical supplier, "HotTubMan" is correct about ozone (O3) being a "possible" carcinogin. This is because of scientific studies concerning "Free Radicals". In the case of the ozone molecule, two of the oxygen molecules have a very strong chemical bond while the third oxygen molecule has a weak chemical bond. It is this weakly bonded oxygen molecule that is referred to as a "Free Radical". And Free Radicals have been linked to causing cancer in several studies. The important thing to remember is that ozonators should be designed to use up all the "ozone" molecules before they reach the surface of the spa water, so that you can't breathe it in. Look for a Corona Discharge Ozonating system that is:

1.Capable of producing enough ozone to be an effective oxidizer.
2. Equipped with a large "Contact Chamber"- this will ensure that the "ozone" molecules will mix with enough spa water and get used up, so that no ozone molecules can reach the spa water's surface.

Hope this helps!!!

[Starlight]

Hello,
Actually "Starlight", according to the Hot Tub chemistry training I recieved from our chemical supplier, "HotTubMan" is correct about ozone (O3) being a "possible" carcinogin. This is because of scientific studies concerning "Free Radicals". In the case of the ozone molecule, two of the oxygen molecules have a very strong chemical bond while the third oxygen molecule has a weak chemical bond. It is this weakly bonded oxygen molecule that is referred to as a "Free Radical". And Free Radicals have been linked to causing cancer in several studies. The important thing to remember is that ozonators should be designed to use up all the "ozone" molecules before they reach the surface of the spa water, so that you can't breathe it in. Look for a Corona Discharge Ozonating system that is:

1.Capable of producing enough ozone to be an effective oxidizer.
2. Equipped with a large "Contact Chamber"- this will ensure that the "ozone" molecules will mix with enough spa water and get used up, so that no ozone molecules can reach the spa water's surface.

Hope this helps!!!

Hi Jordy,

Thanks for the advice.  Actually, I have a degree in chemistry and currently work in the medical diagnostics industry so I consider myself pretty well versed in this particular area.  None of the data I have seen substantiates classifying ozone as a carcinogen--at best, ozone exposure *might* accelerate pre-cancerous cells on their journey toward full cancer status.  Ozone does have plenty of others issues accociated with it if the gas is allowed to concentrate, but cancer isn't one of them--at least according to the pretty extensive testing that has been done to date that I have seen.

Yes, "free radicals" are the current poster child blamed for  all sorts of ills, but not all free radicals are equally damaging.  Your chemical supplier incorrectly defined a free radical for you.  Chemically, a "free radical" is a species with an unpaired electron--a high energy state that is reactive because it will "rip" an electron from other molecules to end up with paired electrons.  Your body actually produces the superoxide (O2.) radical every day during the conversion of food into energy, so the cells evolved an enzyme  (superoxide dismutase) specifically to break down this free radical.  

I have heard statements out of the mouths of salesmen  in the spa industry talking about water chemistry and sanitation  that were incredibly incorrect.  I don't know if it was lack of knowledge or deliberately misleading information to highlight the "improvements" of their brand versus the competition, but the end result is the same--the general public who has little knowledge in this area acts upon this flawed information.  I hate seeing this misinformation further propagated in boards that reach considerable numbers of people.  I don't often read the boards nor post when I do read them, but evey once in a while I see something where I feel I can contribute.  Hopefully, I've helped alleviate concerns that people with ozonators are increasing their cancer risk.  I encourage everyone to investigate the facts for themselves--the's no particular reason you should believe me more than any other internet poster.

Just my .02

Starlight

[Jordy]

Thanks Starlight, hope you keep on contributing.

[Chas]

Actually, I have a degree in chemistry and currently work in the medical diagnostics industry so I consider myself pretty well versed in this particular area.
Starlight

Then maybe you'll appreciate this joke my daughter told me:
Two Hydrogen atoms were walking down the street.
One said, "Oh no, I've lost an electron."
"Are you sure?" said the other one.
"Yes! I'm Positive."

[HotTubMan]

Starlight;

I hope my comments did not suggest anyone was going to get cancer from ozonators. I stated that systems have been designed to protect consumer from coming into contact with live ozone. I said that some ozone systems are more likely to cause damage to the covers and pillows.

I am curious, Starlight,  how you would explain why some ozone systems work continuously and others have been designated to bypass while the jet pumps are on high speed. What is the motivation for the manufacturer to have such a bypass? Obviously I dont know the reason.

[ebirrane]

I am curious, Starlight,  how you would explain why some ozone systems work continuously and others have been designated to bypass while the jet pumps are on high speed. What is the motivation for the manufacturer to have such a bypass? Obviously I dont know the reason.

I think when he wrote:
" It is a known bronchial irritant and can be very problematic for those with asthma, diminished lung capacity, or ozone sensitivity."

he felt that was the motiviation.

The way I have always thought of it is that when the jet pumps are on and on hi the possibility for off-gassing is greater which can be very unpleasant for people sitting in the tub.  I assume that when the jets are on high the water moves too fast through the ozone contact chamber for the ozone to properly be absorbed. But, that is just an assumption.

When I was wet testing, I remember the Jacuzzi had a noticable "thunderstorm" smell in the small room it was in. I wonder if that was ozone buildup?

-Ed

[Brewman]

When I was wet testing, I remember the Jacuzzi had a noticable "thunderstorm" smell in the small room it was in. I wonder if that was ozone buildup?

-Ed

Good question.  I once remember an add for one of those Ion air cleaners that Sharper Image sells, and their add mentioned that thunderstorm smell in refernce to the ozone that their machine produced.
Brewman