Confused in the ozone layer

[iggythewetcat]

I’m a little confused after following all the questions and answers regarding chemistry that have been posted lately. The tub I’m getting is going to have an ozonator (Hot Spring), which I purchased on the premise that it would mean a lot less chemicals/maintenance. Am I to understand I still have to use as wide a variety of stuff and continually check the water etc? It’s interesting to me as a newbie that there doesn’t seem to be a consensus as to the best treatment product. Unlike subjective opinions, say about the hot tub itself, clean water is clean water. I realize that local water varies a great deal, but I would think there would be a product/treatment approach most people agree works best. Is there a bottom line to this issue?

[ssmtim]

Congratulations on your new tub.  I am sure that you will enjoy it especially as the weather cools.

On the best water chemicals and system to use, I am sure that you will get many opinions. This is an ongoing discussion on this forum.  You will likely receive widely varying advice here and elsewhere on the net.  There does not seem to be a single "best" system.  For what it is worth, we use Bromine with our Ozonator  and no enzymes.   It is very simple and works well for us.

A good way to start is use the starter kit that your dealer should provide and see how it works.   Once you get the hang of managing your water, try something else if you want or stick with the dealer's recommendations.

Just  some advice.  When you first get your tub, you will likely do what almost everybody does and try to "micromanage" your water.  Some adjustments are very hard to make and likely will lead to your TDS going through the roof quickly.  Count on your first water change after a month.

Good Luck and Enjoy

Tim

[bulmer4nc]

This is definitely an interesting subject.  There are many opinions here as to which is the best chemical regime to go with.  Based on the posts on this board I'd say the Dichlor (chlorine) is the most poplular.   The decision about which sanitizer to use (we use bromine) is only only one part though.

Here's a list of stuff that I've got in my stock pile of chemicals (in addition to Bromine Tables)...

Spa Up / Spa Down (control PH / Alkalinity)
Alkalinity Increaser (our water is naturally low in Alkalinty so we have to increase without affecting PH)
Spa Defender (use once a week to reduce buildup that can affect the plumbing)
Bright / Clear (or equivalent) - Use this weekly as well (only small doses as it can cause foaming if used too much)
Scum Gon (use this once in a while if I notice a scum line forming)
Shock (we use a non-chlorine MPS shock weekly or as needed)
Foam Down (use this if needed - we mix it 50/50 with water in a spray bottle)
Hardness Increaser (one time use per fill as our water is naturally soft)
Metal Gon (one time use per fill to reduce metals in the water)

It's my understanding that all of the above are used in any chemical regime (although some may be used very little or not at all based on what kind of water you have).

Having an ozonator in our spa does allow us to use less bromine.  It doesn't affect the use of any of those other chemicals though.

I'm also very new to this as well as we've only had our tub just over a month now.  Maybe I've been sucked into using all that stuff I listed above.  Hard to say.  At this point though, we've got crystal clear water and it appears to all be working out great.

In addition we also rinse out our filter once a week with the hose and then use the spray cleaner once a month.  I haven't got to the point where I've had to soak the filter yet though.  By rinsing it out once a week, the filter still looks brand new.  Just as white today as it was when we got it.  (yeah I know 5 or 6 weeks isn't that long but we do see a difference in the filter each week after I hose it down)

Congrats on your purchase!  I'm sure it'll all come to you as it did us.

Ken

[UnderTheStars]

Hi Iggy!  Good call going with the HS (yep, I'm biased!)  Here's another one of those many opinions!  To answer your biggest question up front - yes, the ozonator will reduce your chem usage - a lot.  It will also give you some slack on adding daily if you are not using the tub.  FWIW, here are some things from my first 6 weeks in "the chem zone"

My dealer had a class for water chem.  6 couples attended.  We were asked  exactly what tub/access. each couple had.  Then proceeded to give us all THE SAME maintenance schedule.  (Only later did I learn this is not correct -  Without ozone, you're goal is a higher chlorine level of 3 - 5 ppm.  With ozone you only need to go up to 1 ppm.)   In other words, the guy knew I had ozone, & gave the wrong instructions.  

So initially, I was dumping a ton of chlorine in after each soak.  Only later did I find out I was wasting product, making the chlorine do all the work, and negating the effects of the ozone/silver ion cartridge.  Also in the class, I was given a detailed list of stuff to add.  I'm using Leisure Time so I was given Spa Perfect, Spa Defender, Spa Brite & Clear, etc. etc. in addition to the chlorine (Spa56) and non-chlorine shock (Renew.)  Yeah I know, confusing.

I put ALL the stuff in per instructions and in 3 weeks my water was a mess.  Interestingly, the HotSpring manual is not very clear about adjusting chem use downward with ozone.  So I missed that part.  There is a very brief mention back on pg. 54 of the manual (not in the "main water care section")  Looking at the Leisure Time instructions - same thing, not very clear.

I also ran into some great advice on this board about the same time that "less is better" in terms of the number of products you use.  So I drained the tub, cleaned it, & started over (most new owners seem to do this at 3 - 4 weeks for this exact same reason!)  I now have a new approach:

1) I'm not using all the "extra stuff,"  Just Chlorine (spa-56) and non-chlorine shock (Renew.)  Many here talk about using only chlorine to disinfect and shock.

2) After use I add just enough chlorine to bring the level up to 1ppm.  I find that if I used the tub previously within 24 hours I only need 1/4 tsp.  If it's been longer or a lot of bodies were in with me I use 1/2 - 3/4 tsp.  I've been on this plan for a couple weeks and was testing the water before/after.  I find now I "know" how much to add and If I test it's right on the mark almost every time.  Believe me, it gets easy - just keep measuring at first until you "get it."

3)  Once a week I shock, hose the filters, check PH & Alkalinity (takes me about 1/2 - 3/4 hour.)

Bottom line - You're right.  Everyone will tell you "do this" and there is a lot of conflicting info.  You will love the ozone once you get it figured out.  Check this out:  It was really hot this week and I used the tub Monday morning, not again until  Friday night.  I added nothing all week and the water was perfect Friday eve.  The ozone/silver ion thing will keep the water sanitized if you are not using the tub for a day or two.  Without ozone I don't think you can do that.  Hey, I'm a newb, only had the tub going on 2 mos. but I'm sold on ozone!  Congrats, enjoy, don't worry about the water thing - it's confusing at first but it gets easy!

[Vinny]

There is definately confusion in ozone and many opinions about it's use and effectiveness.  My opinion is I have no opinion on it. I don't think it's the cure all to water problems or makes a person use less chemicals but I'm not convinced it doesn't do anything either. If I buy a tub and it has it as "standard" -  great if not  - no big deal. I don't think you can compare ozone use in spas to ozone use in drinking water sterilzation - I believe they use different methods to sterilize with ozone - but I don't know.

I can't talk intellegently about bromine but chlorine I can to some extent. In general you need to have the santizer level at a point and for enough time to kill any "germs" in the tub. If you keep the level at the minimum there's a good chance you won't be killing off everything it needs to before you use it up. For chlorine - by not using chlorine as "shock" you don't get to super disinfect the tub in case you didn't get all the germs.  One problem with chlorine is combined chlorine (chlorine that got used up) - it has no killing power and you need to shock with chlorine or MPS. If you use chlorine in a tub then heat will kill the chlorine also. I don't believe this happens with bromine.

On another forum there is a person who is a microbiologist and has a HS tub with ozone. It sounds like he has run many scientific tests on his tub and uses chlorine in the 2-3 ppm range and shocks weekly with chlorine to superdisinfect his tub.  I beleive his findings and his thoughts on the subject -  assuming that you have killed the germs in the tub by chemical disinfection -ozone may keep the tub free from those germs from forming again (I'm paraphrasing). I figured if it's good enough for him, it's good enough for me.

[UnderTheStars]

So Iggy, which HS tub did you buy, what color, and when's the delivery?

[iggythewetcat]

It’s just a Jetsetter. I know it’s weenie by the standards of most tubers, but it’s just my wife and me so this should be the perfect size. We’re not “kids” but we are newly weds and I thought a hot tub would be a great activity for us to bond with! I got the pearl color, which I think looks really nice. However, I plan to cover the outside with the same material I’m building a new deck out of (Ipe) because we’re not too big on the artificial wood look

[UnderTheStars]

Hi Iggy!  Hey, the Jetsetter is not a weenie tub at all.  It's great for two, sometimes three people.  It should be perfect for you guys!  (Congrats on the wedding by the way.)

The moto-massage is excellent (my second favorite.)  My absolute fav. is the rotary jet.  You'll have that one in the seat next to the lounger.  It really gives your back a working over - great after a tough day.  The seat opposite (soothing seven) is gentle and you can sit in front of it for a long time.  No, not a weenie at all.  It's a real-live hot tub, a high quality product, and sized for two people.  Perfect for quiet, intimate conversation.  You are going to enjoy it so much!

My wife & I just came in from our tub.  Tonight we didn't even turn on the jets.  Just let ourselves relax in that 102 water and talked under the stars.  Hope you won't have to wait too long for your delivery!
Stars

[rocket]

Hi Iggy,

The ozonator is a helper, not a cure all.  Unfortunately, many salespeople over sell this component.

You will still have to do all of the things that you would normally do with one exception, you can use a little less chlorine.

[HotTubMan]

Ozone does elimate oils much better than chlorine/bromine. Having ozone can eliminate the need for enzyme products designed to "fight scum line".
I also find that the ozone reducing the foam factor nicely.

I do agree it is in no way a substitute for Cl/Br and is not a "cure-all"

HTMan

[Jordy]

Hi Iggy, the way I've been trained to understand ozone is that it is like adding more power to your Sanitizer (whether it be Chlorine or a Bromine system). About 85% of your Chlorine/Bromine's capability is used to oxidize and clean up dead or dying material in your spa water(think of this process as the garbageman), the other 15% of your Chlorine/Bromine's capability is used to sanitize your spa water (kill active bacteria/micro-organisms). An ozonator produces O3 molecules, 2 of the Oxygen molecules have a strong chemical bond and the third Oxygen molecule has a weaker bond. This Oxygen molecule is called a "Free Radical". When the ozone is injected into the contact chamber and mixes with the spa water, the O3 molecule bumps into dead or dying material and the loosely bound Oxygen molecule (the Free Radical) desinigrates it on contact (this chemical process is called Oxidization). The remaining 2 Oxygen molecules (O2) is what you see floating up to the surface of the spa in the form of bubbles. The main effect that an ozonator has is that it will reduce the overall effectiveness of whatever amount of Chlorine or Bromine you add to the water. That's why you don't need to use as much sanitizer to achieve the same end result. Having said that, I was trained that you must always maintain the same sanitizer level in the spa water, regardless of whether you have an ozonator or not. Can you tell us where you learned that you can maintain a lower sanitizer level if you have an ozonator, I am curious to learn more if that is so. Hope this helps.

[Jordy]

Sorry, I didn't mean to say an ozonator will reduce the overall "effectiveness" of your Chlorine/Bromine, I meant to say that it will reduce the overall "amount" of Chlorine/Bromine required to achieve the same results. Sorry for the confusion!!!

[Vinny]

In doing some research on ozone, I came across a couple of "facts" about it. Now I will admit that these "facts" seem to apply to industrial or drinking water purification and came from manufacturers' web sites and from a university web site.

- It seems that a CD ozonator doesn't work too well in humid "air". For greatest production, the air needs to be dried before going through the CD ozonator. It would seem then a UV ozonator would be better used in a hot tub  - environment can't be controlled to provide dry air.

- Ozone is best absorbed in water that's around 68 degrees (I do believe it was in F not C), apparently water loses it's ability to absorb ozone in warmer water.

- Multiple contact chambers are used with the water traveling in opposite direction of the ozone. (I think D1 uses this in it's ozone system).  A ozone destruction unit is utilized to get rid of excess ozone.

- Finally some of the residue from ozone may be harmful to humans. Apparently 02 isn't the only product of ozone disinfection.

I don't know if it applies to hot tubs or not but I thought I would share it with you.

[Chas]

I think Jordy has it - well, in his ammended version - you can easily acheive a higher level of chlorine with a smaller dose of chlorine. This is because the ozone system does in fact oxidize much of the gunk naturally found in spas. Hmm. Is gunk a natural ingredient?

[stiffy]

Ozone is a gas, a modified highly reactive form of oxygen (chemical formula O3) that is one of the strongest oxidizers and disinfectant available. It is stronger than chlorine, bromine, hydrogen peroxide and hypochlorous acid. In fact, against a bacterium called E.Coli (commonly used to measure the effectiveness of sanitizers), ozone kills 25 times more powerful than hypochlorous acid (chlorine) and about 500 times faster.

There are two main methods of producing ozone. In a corona discharge method, air is passed through an electrically charged chamber, where a miniature “lightning storm” produces ozone from oxygen. In the UV method, air is passed close to one or more Ultraviolet lamps, which bombard the oxygen molecules with UV rays to produce ozone.

Ozone is measured in parts per billion (units that are 1000 times smaller than parts per million) up to about 1 ppm or measured in milli grams. If you use an ozone generator in combination with chlorine or bromine , you merely need less chlorine or bromine. Test for the chlorine or bromine residual as you normally would. You will find that it takes a lot less chlorine or bromine to maintain that residual as much as 95% less, because much of the sanitizing chore is being carried out by the ozone. Also a pool or spa requires a lower residual of chlorine or bromine to maintain adequate sterilization. For a pool about .5 ppm is sufficient and a spa only requires 1ppm. Stand alone, ozone cannot oxidize such compounds as ammonia, urea or amino acids (all common bather wastes). However it can oxidize these simple compounds once chlorine or bromine has combined with them. Also ozone only stays in pool or spa water for about 18 minutes under ideal conditions of pH, temperature, contaminates etc.... however, it usually only lasts about 20 second to 6 minutes in most spas and pools. When ozone is first introduced into the water and during the first 72 hours or so, your water may get cloudy. Ozone will begin to oxidize all of those particles and metals that your present sanitizer would otherwise leave in the water. When these particles are oxidized, they form visible particles that are heavier than water and precipitate out. Also some of the dirt and debris in the water is to small to be trapped by the filter. These small-sized particles have a weak electrical charge or pole. The charge is a negative charge and they repel each other like two magnets. They are so small they are not affected by gravity and won't settle out. Ozone neutralizes these charges allowing the particles to combine into large enough particles to be trapped by the filter. Once the oxygen has do its job it reverts back to oxygen which will make the water look, feel and even taste better.