Committing to a Spa

[kiva]

Hi Folks,

We're at the point where we need to commit to a spa or to some other option. We'd love to have some feedback, as my knowledge in this areas is limited. Here is what we're looking at. All prices without haggling / any discussion on price.

There are essentially 2 reputable, long-standing dealers in town.

Dealer #1

Has been around for 35+ years. Most popular dealer in town. Friends of mine have used him. Service their own tubs, etc. We were able to wet test tubs. Hot Springs only.

Hot Springs Beam (Limelight line): Nice looking spa, but a bit shallow-feeling for our tastes. Next available in March (earliest). Includes steps, cover lift. $7650 + $250 for delivery. Tax included.

Hot Springs Sovereign (Highlife Collection): above our original price range, but pretty damn nice. $11440 + $250 delivery. Includes steps, cover, lift. Tax included. 2 available. late Feb.

Hotspot Relay we liked best and is in that sweet spot price-wise, but it's not available until next August (price and features are a nice combo and it is the one he sells the most of). There is always the chance the vaccine will speed up production, but, for now, August. Thus, i'm not even listing it here. 

Dealer #2

This dealer has been around a long time but is also a pool builder. Larger showroom, Deals in Sundance, Caldera, Marquis. We were unable to test any spas.

Caldera Martinique (Paradise Series): $7895 + tax ($8467). Plus $300 for coverlet, $150 for steps, $300 delivery. Total $8917 + delivery charge. Available 9/2021.

Sundance Peyton (680 Series): $6895 + tax ($7395). Plus same as above for total of 7844 + delivery charge. Available 3/2021.

Sundance Hamilton (780 series): $9595 + tax ($10290). Plus same as above for total of $10740 + delivery. Available end of Feb 2021.

Sundance Montclair (780 series): $8595 + tax ($9218). Plus same as above for total of $9668 + delivery. Available end of March 2021.

Dealer #3

A backyard store in the mall. Not as much confidence and least favorable dealer experience. Sells Jacuzzi brand

J-335: 13000 + tax. Includes steps but no coverlet. Out of price range but, like the others no haggling yet.

J-225: $8885 + tax ($9529). Other same as above. In stock now (we're not ready yet though).

J-235: same as 225 but available April. Has lounge we like.

So, that's it locally. Open to feedback re: internet buying? Used?

Thank you for your time.

matt

[Guzzi]

Kiva,

I loved the 2009 Hot Springs Aria we had left behind when selling our home. It was purchased in 2010 ($10K, no optional equipment).  I am close to purchasing another hot tub, but downsizing to a smaller tub now.

Undeniably, the products in the HS highlife line are very well made, and in my eyes ...the qualitative difference is immediately apparent, when compared against other makes at equivalent price points. 

Having said that though, not being in the market since 2010, the pricing just appears scary HIGH (and unacceptable) to me.  I can’t wrap my head around the idea that manufacturers have high end tubs priced north of $20k now.  The devaluation on such a big ticket luxury item is obscene. I buy my vehicles used as well, which are infinitely more complex than a box of heated, swirling water.

Letting go of $10K for a spa delivered several weeks thereafter was hard then, and is absolutely no easier now, given the price increases due to high market demand and many months of delayed gratification. IMO, the best bang-for-buck is found in the dealer certified spa market.
 
If I could locate a well-cared for, preowned model of the spa I am seriously considering buying, I wouldn’t hesitate to purchase it, provided I was comfortable with the local dealer.  Good luck in your hunt!

[bud16415]

I don’t know how much help I can offer we have a Caldera Geneva and we love it. Going on 7 years now and I had one leak I was able to fix myself as it was a hose clamp under the main cover and last year I did a wet end pump change myself. Both jobs were not too bad to DIY.

You mentioned the depth and that is what we liked about our tub and a big reason we bought it. Plus she loves the recliner I hardly ever get it. Three of the 6 seats are really therapeutic two have jets but are more of a social seat and one we call the cool down seat sits higher. That is also where we have our steps and that taller seat makes getting in and out a lot easier.

My advice would be to stretch your budget a little if that tub has features you like better. You will be using it for many years. One feature I will have in any tub I ever buy is a circulating pump.

Also get at least 2 more seats than you will normally use. We have 6 seats and in 7 years I don’t think we have ever had 6 people in it. The extra room is great with just 2 people.   

[The Wizard of Spas]

What is the most comfortable spa?  I'd start there.  Not sidestepping the question.  I'll leave discussion on pricing, etc. to others.  Point is - this is a 15 year decision and it starts with comfort.  What is a few months on a spa in terms of wait time if it is the *right* spa in terms of ergonomics and comfort, compared to the 15 years of ownership? 

Feel tops all.  Whatever feels the best tends to be the best spa for you, regardless of the brand.

I hope this helps.  Good luck moving forward.

[kiva]

What is the most comfortable spa?  I'd start there.  Not sidestepping the question.  I'll leave discussion on pricing, etc. to others.  Point is - this is a 15 year decision and it starts with comfort.  What is a few months on a spa in terms of wait time if it is the *right* spa in terms of ergonomics and comfort, compared to the 15 years of ownership? 

Feel tops all.  Whatever feels the best tends to be the best spa for you, regardless of the brand.

I hope this helps.  Good luck moving forward.

Thank you for this reminder. In this current world of short supply, we were unable to sit in any of the Sundance Spas: we would be buying blind, which feels completely insane for a $10k purchase. The HotSpring we liked most in our price point was next August. I think, if that is what it's down to, I would take a flyer on something used I could sit in before buying vs. waiting until next August.

Is the general feeling that the HotSpring prices are about right or too high?  We were comfortable in all the hotspring spas except I wasn't fond of the beam.

[castletonia]

Hot Spring prices are insanely low.

[kiva]

Hot Spring prices are insanely low.

If that is the general consensus re: pricing, we may just up our budget to the sovereign and suck it up. We wet tested the vanguard in that series, but we can go in and wet test the sovereign tomorrow eve if we want.

Thank you. Any other opinions re: pricing on the sovereign would be appreciated. I think it's between that (assuming it's comfortable) or just rolling the dice a bit on a used model.

[Guzzi]

Kiva,

In my narrowing search for another tub, if the HS Jetsetter LX had wrist jets, I would have promptly wet-tested it. (Can’t understand why only the Envoy offers them!).

I will cherish the fond memories of those addictive double barrel Moto massage jets, temporarily leaving twin ‘lash marks’ astride my spine. (but it hurts so good!)  I wish Watkins would license their proprietary jet design to other spa manufacturers.  If the smaller Jetsetter LX could meet your requirements, you might be able to trim the budget.

A Sundance dealer in the Atlanta area, whom frequently creates YouTube videos, posted one several months ago with transparent pricing on all the tubs he sells. Might help in your decision.

One potential purchase snag (for myself, only) would be mandatory salt sanitation.  I am in my ‘comfortable rut’ ...regarding familiar usage of traditional sanitizing methods (ozone & chlorine) and would require much convincing that I should change now.  If my recall on this topic is correct, proprietary salt cartridge dispensers are often an unaccounted for, recurring expense.

Best of luck on the hunt!

[The Wizard of Spas]

What is the most comfortable spa?  I'd start there.  Not sidestepping the question.  I'll leave discussion on pricing, etc. to others.  Point is - this is a 15 year decision and it starts with comfort.  What is a few months on a spa in terms of wait time if it is the *right* spa in terms of ergonomics and comfort, compared to the 15 years of ownership? 

Feel tops all.  Whatever feels the best tends to be the best spa for you, regardless of the brand.

I hope this helps.  Good luck moving forward.

Thank you for this reminder. In this current world of short supply, we were unable to sit in any of the Sundance Spas: we would be buying blind, which feels completely insane for a $10k purchase. The HotSpring we liked most in our price point was next August. I think, if that is what it's down to, I would take a flyer on something used I could sit in before buying vs. waiting until next August.

Is the general feeling that the HotSpring prices are about right or too high?  We were comfortable in all the hotspring spas except I wasn't fond of the beam.

No way to type this without sounding like a brat so please know at all of this comes from a place of good faith and isn't at all meant to sound bratty. . .

This could be a 15 year commitment.  You don't want to "buy blind" based on that 10 month wait time, but based on that same wait time, you'd consider buying something used.  I feel like that is just as big of a gamble or similar to buying blind, as you put it.  I'd wager many would agree.

The point is:  Over the course of 15 years, would you rather have the thing that feels the best to you, or something you got b/c you just couldn't wait a few more months for the thing you wanted?  Patience is really hard when you have money to burn on a luxury item.  Totally get it.  Also - You have to do what is best for you and your family.  But why not buy what you want, use the 10 months wait time to save for the little extra you're paying, and be totally happy?  10 months will be over before you know it and the a year from owning the odds are you'll be terribly satisfied. 

Make sense?  Again - hope this came off correctly and not jerky. 

[kiva]

What is the most comfortable spa?  I'd start there.  Not sidestepping the question.  I'll leave discussion on pricing, etc. to others.  Point is - this is a 15 year decision and it starts with comfort.  What is a few months on a spa in terms of wait time if it is the *right* spa in terms of ergonomics and comfort, compared to the 15 years of ownership? 

Feel tops all.  Whatever feels the best tends to be the best spa for you, regardless of the brand.

I hope this helps.  Good luck moving forward.

Thank you for this reminder. In this current world of short supply, we were unable to sit in any of the Sundance Spas: we would be buying blind, which feels completely insane for a $10k purchase. The HotSpring we liked most in our price point was next August. I think, if that is what it's down to, I would take a flyer on something used I could sit in before buying vs. waiting until next August.

Is the general feeling that the HotSpring prices are about right or too high?  We were comfortable in all the hotspring spas except I wasn't fond of the beam.

No way to type this without sounding like a brat so please know at all of this comes from a place of good faith and isn't at all meant to sound bratty. . .

This could be a 15 year commitment.  You don't want to "buy blind" based on that 10 month wait time, but based on that same wait time, you'd consider buying something used.  I feel like that is just as big of a gamble or similar to buying blind, as you put it.  I'd wager many would agree.

The point is:  Over the course of 15 years, would you rather have the thing that feels the best to you, or something you got b/c you just couldn't wait a few more months for the thing you wanted?  Patience is really hard when you have money to burn on a luxury item.  Totally get it.  Also - You have to do what is best for you and your family.  But why not buy what you want, use the 10 months wait time to save for the little extra you're paying, and be totally happy?  10 months will be over before you know it and the a year from owning the odds are you'll be terribly satisfied. 

Make sense?  Again - hope this came off correctly and not jerky.

Not bratty at all. We actually got to wet test the Sovereign tonight and, if we had to choose tonight, we'd probably go with that tub. Is it perfect? No. But we can't afford the spa with everything so some sacrifices need to be made. I think it depends on if the sacrifices are crucial / essential.

That being said, i think I will drop the sundance dealer from the list due to being unable to wet test.

More being said...I did just find out that I *could* get a bullfrog or "strong spa" (never heard of them) from a regional dealer, 90min away. They have a service tech and there is no trip charge for service. I don't know much about bullfrog, but they have some tubs that are in the price range (R-series, I think) and available within a reasonable time frame. It may be worth the trip before dropping the $ on the sovereign.

thoughts?

[Guzzi]

Kiva,

I am fairly confident that there’s consensus from the various dealers/spa techs here, that Bullfrog would be included amongst the ‘top tier’ spa manufacturers.  Strong spas on the other hand, is unlikely to be ranked above a third tier product, and would be closely associated with mass merchandisers big box offerings. (Home Depot, among them).

Watkins (conglomerate owner of Hot Springs, Caldera & others) manufactures spas for big box retailer; Costco, under the Aquaterra label.

Immediate qualitative differences in shell/cabinet construction, gaudy lighting, reliance on small-diameter jetting to boost ‘jet count’ ...all jump out and demand notice of the discriminating shopper, whom has been exposed to samples of top tier products.

I considered the Bullfrog X5L, R5L and A5L, as they have wrist jets either as a standard feature, or an available option. The relatively (to me) low jet pressure in both jet packs for neck/shoulders, was the determining factor in moving on to other spas.  I like the plumbing theory that BF spas utilize, I do concur with others that the modular jet pack assemblies do place limits on sculpted curves designed into the seat molds.

Even the D1 Spas Triad with massage sequencer (2.5 continuous hp pump) is still too weak, to my taste (HS Aria’s quartet jets were better) ...but looks like my best option for 2020 in a small 250-ish gallon spa with wrist jets.

[kiva]

Kiva,

I am fairly confident that there’s consensus from the various dealers/spa techs here, that Bullfrog would be included amongst the ‘top tier’ spa manufacturers.  Strong spas on the other hand, is unlikely to be ranked above a third tier product, and would be closely associated with mass merchandisers big box offerings. (Home Depot, among them).

Watkins (conglomerate owner of Hot Springs, Caldera & others) manufactures spas for big box retailer; Costco, under the Aquaterra label.

Immediate qualitative differences in shell/cabinet construction, gaudy lighting, reliance on small-diameter jetting to boost ‘jet count’ ...all jump out and demand notice of the discriminating shopper, whom has been exposed to samples of top tier products.

I considered the Bullfrog X5L, R5L and A5L, as they have wrist jets either as a standard feature, or an available option. The relatively (to me) low jet pressure in both jet packs for neck/shoulders, was the determining factor in moving on to other spas.  I like the plumbing theory that BF spas utilize, I do concur with others that the modular jet pack assemblies do place limits on sculpted curves designed into the seat molds.

Even the D1 Spas Triad with massage sequencer (2.5 continuous hp pump) is still too weak, to my taste (HS Aria’s quartet jets were better) ...but looks like my best option for 2020 in a small 250-ish gallon spa with wrist jets.

Thank you for the information. I will scratch StrongSpas off the list. We could go tomorrow and check out the BF. That is an interesting point re: the curve vs. modular setup. If we end up going with the sovereign, what do you think of the price we're being offered?

[d00nut]

The Price on the sovereign is insanely low.  Especially with tax included?  I'm closer to $13 without tax

[kiva]

The Price on the sovereign is insanely low.  Especially with tax included?  I'm closer to $13 without tax

That's good to know. Thank you. We're headed to check out some Bullfrog spas today and we'll see what becomes of it.

[kiva]

Wet tested the Bullfrog today. Pretty cool stuff. I can see why people like them. On the surface, it seems a better deal than the sovereign, but i've only just started my reading on them.  Without any negotiations, here are the prices:

R6L: $10,500 + tax ($11261). Includes delivery, coverlift and steps, ozone, and 2 pumps. Built to order. Available March 2021, absent any other upcoming shutdowns.

R7L: $12,000 + tax ($12870). same as above. I don't think we *need* the bigger tub as 90% of the time it is going to have 2 people in it. it does have that 4th jetpack. Available Feb 2021.

X6L: $8500 + tax ($9116). 1 pump. We were not able to wet test or sit in this. No jetpacks, but the jets are similar to some pack setups. 

The A series seemed to be too expensive for us. nice features and all w/ the touchscreen, etc., but to get 2 pumps, etc. is like $13k+.

The nearest BF dealer is 90min away. He is the assigned dealer for our region. He stated a 2 day turnaround time and $99 trip charge per issue for service. He reported in the event that he weren't in business (he's been selling BF for 8 years; his current location is new after a previous partnership in another dealership), BF would certainly get another distributor / dealer in the area to take over service. This seems to be a weak area with buying from an out-of-area dealer. Not sure what else I should be considering / asking the dealer re: service.

Any thoughts on the pricing? Comparison to the HS sovereign? We liked how the best jet in the soveriign - the motomassager - can be put pretty much anywhere you want in the Bullfrog. Not exactly the same, but the customization was pretty cool.