Dumb Newbie Questions - Considering Used Envoy or New Bullfrog on 3 Story Deck

[vysean]

As the title says, I'm a dumb newbie - apologies in advance...    Couple of different, semi-related questions for anyone willing to share their knowledge and experience (and thank you in advance):

1. My only hot tub experience is at hotels using those generic large concrete hot tubs that have maybe 10 jets and can hold 20 people.  I know I need to wet-test first, but I don't want to waste the dealer's time (and God forbid I wet-test and decide it's not worth it).  Do dealers view wet-testing as an inconvenience, or as a critical part of the buying experience?

2.  I'm looking at a 2006 Envoy or a new R6L.  For the 2006 Envoy, they quoted $6k, including cover, lifter, delivery, setup, and 1 year warranty.  Very reputable dealer.  Looks like a good spa, but kinda pricey for something that's 13 years old and going to have some cosmetic issues?  FWIW, they told me it was a warranty replacement for a customer due to crazing, so I gather they essentially got it for free (although they are refurbishing it).  Would it be completely unreasonable to try and argue it down to $4,500 ($4k for tub, $500 for delivery/setup basically)?  The Bullfrog R6L would be brand new via Costco and includes a cover (but no lifter).  Using the Costco CC, I'm led to believe by the dealer that I'd end up with something like a 5-10 year warranty (plus possibly some cash back via an executive membership).  The R6L is listed at $7299 and the dealer tells me they can't beat that price even if I buy direct.  But the Bullfrog dealer doesn't get as good of reviews as the dealer selling the Envoy and is located an hour away (a concern for warranty issues).

3.  I have a three-story hillside house.  You enter on the top (main) level, go down a flight of stairs to the lower level (some guest bedrooms, game room, etc.).  From the lower level deck, you can go down another flight of stairs to the ground below.  I'm planning to place the tub on the lower level deck.  The view from there is excellent and it's more or less a completely unused deck (the upper deck would be more convenient with an even better view, but it's already a little crowded with grill, general seating, and dining table).  Anyone have advice or regrets related to deck placement?

4.  Related to #3 - structural support/weight bearing on deck - the dealer is fairly certain it will be fine.  I'm not so sure - it's 2x8 joists 16" OC, composite decking, with 6x6 piers on the outside end and a ledger attached to the house.  Joists are attached via 2x6 Simpson Strong-Tie hangars.  The lower-level deck is 9' out from the house by ~24' wide (upper level is 9' out by ~48' wide).  Per another thread on here, I'm going to contact the city's building inspector to see what they have to say.  The hot tub dealer recommended a local contractor who could review my deck and strengthen if necessary, but it's been two weeks since I called him and he hasn't returned my call.  I can figure out load ratings from Simpson's website, but I get confused since there are two decks, and since I think I'd need to account for the piers and what they're attached to at the footings and maybe even the soil type.  Maybe I'm over-thinking this.  Just don't want to have friends over and the deck collapse.

Is the general order here to settle on a couple of tubs you like, wet test them, negotiate price on your favorite, then deal with site placement issues, then get delivered?  Or do you wet test some random tubs first to make sure you will be happy with the hot tub lifestyle, then work on identifying features that are important, then get your top three, then wet-test again, etc.?

Sorry for the length - thanks for any feedback you're willing to share to help make my hot tub buying experience more productive and enjoyable!

[castletonia]

I'm a Hot Spring dealer and think the Envoy is a great hot tub, but at 13 years old, I would look over it carefully.  What has been done to recondition it and what does the warranty cover?  The price could be high, but its all relative to the condition and what is included.  What area of the country are you in?

I think Bullfrog makes a quality product, but with the dealer that far away and already not possibly reputable, I would have concerns about after the sale support.

My advice would be to use the dealer locator of the following brands: Arctic, Artesian, Bullfrog, Caldera, D1, Hot Spring, Jacuzzi, Marquis, and Sundance and see what you have locally available.  Research each dealer and check out the hot tubs.  Narrow down your options from there.  Probably also a good idea to somewhat have a budget (prices can range from $5k - $20k).  As a Hot Spring/Caldera/Marquis dealer, I can provide insight into those brands. 

In terms of deck structure, I have no idea.  In terms of placement, my opinion is the closer it is to the house and the easier it is to get to, the likelier it is you use the hot tub, especially in the winter.   

[Sam]

Sounds awfully high for a spa that old.  I would definitely try get under $5k on that.  The R6L is a great hot tub but as castletonia stated, if they are far away and not very reputable that may be cause for concern.  An hour away isn't a big deal if you have a good, responsive dealer though I'll add.  We have customers a lot farther away than that and still manage fast response times.

I would expand your search a bit as noted above.  I guess all that I'm saying is that I second everything castletonia said, lol

[Hoff70]

Hello! Fellow newbie here! That said, I'll comment on a couple things:

-I just had a deck finished with my new hot tub in mind. It's pressure treated with Trex decking. I spoke with the builder ahead of time regarding my hot tub intentions and what we did were 2 x 12 joists at 12" on center and in the corner of the deck where the hot tub will be he doubled every joist and hangar. Also 6x6 footers. It's likely overkill but you cannot be too safe. My tub filled will weigh 4500lbs before people. My contractor told me several horror stories about insurance claims that he got into when folks put hot tubs on regular decks not meant to support the weight. I'd say if you have the opportunity to reinforce it, take the time and do so.

-Personally, I would not buy a 13 year old hot tub for that cost, but I am no expert. I just bought a Jacuzzi J-245 that we wet tested against a Bullfrog X7... I paid $6200 for the tub, cover, lifter, steps delivery and tax out the door. Now I'm just waiting on delivery.

Best of luck!

[Tman122]

Way to much for that used tub. Soon as you own a new tub for a year it's worth half what you paid.

13 yo tub 2000-3000 if its in great shape.
Delivery, set up and warranty 1000 or do this yourself.

[swilly1000]

You're probably well advised to get an engineering report regarding placement on a deck.  Your city building department may even demand it.

[wmccall]

VySean,

Welcome to the forum!  Let us know what you decide.  If you wet test, which I do recommend, take along the people who will soak with you most often.  There were some tubs I loved, but my wife floated in.  We ended up with a compromise model.

[vysean]

Well I'm back six months later...

Finally got around to wet testing today.  Working with my local Hot Springs dealer (who apparently lurks on here - so "hi!"), I tried out an Envoy, a Marino, a Flash, and a Jetsetter.

Mostly trying to decide whether loungers were important or not, whether salt water was critical, etc.  I love the concept of a lounger but can't seem to stay fixed in place.  Really liked the Moto-Massage in the first (3 person) tub I sat in, but wasn't a huge fan in the Envoy.  I think maybe it was a configuration issue.  Some of the tubs were not really ready for wet testing - two had low water temps (85 and 96) and half the jets on the Flash were not working (I'm new to hot tubbing or I would have known how to fix it).

I was originally thinking about the Marino (new) for $6500 all-in (and with lots of accessories), or the Tarino, but they had a 2007 Grandee and a 2014 Flair each for $7k all-in.  Really waffled between the two, but ultimately I put down a $500 deposit on the Flair.  Still need to make sure my deck is sufficiently reinforced to handle the weight (it's a fair bit heavier than what I had planned).  And now I'm reading that the 2014 (or earlier?) Flair's had issues with their LED lighting.  Hopefully I mis-read or it was fixed during the refurbishment.

I would have actually preferred the Grandee, but it's at the extreme edge of whether it would fit, and the layout was far from optimal (lounge would be facing a house wall unless I had it craned to my upper deck).  The Flair is better in both regards.

Much as I'm intrigued by the Bullfrog concept (and prices), their layouts really didn't work great for my placement - half the seats would be facing a house wall or the neighbor's house).  For some odd reason, most of the Hot Springs/Caldera spas have good or excellent seat placement for my location.  I'm still curious if Bullfrog's massage action is better or not.  I have persistent lower back and neck pain and am hoping a hot tub will help to reduce it.

Some of my family and friends that might use the tub have sensitive skin.  Am I making a big mistake not going for a salt water system (it does have ozone, if that matters)?  I didn't notice anything, but three of the four tubs I tested were salt.  The dealer mentioned for the 2014 Flair, it was an old style salt system that worked fine but was super expensive for consumables/supplies, so I'd be spending $1k every year or two to replace the cartridge.  As opposed to the new system that's apparently like $90 a year.

Anyway, sorry for another long-winded post, but wanted to say "thanks" for those that responded and not abandon this thread without an update.  Would love feedback on salt water systems or anything else I need to think about, and otherwise, I'll post as I get further along in the process.

[d00nut]

I don't lurk, I continually contribute !

I wasn't in when you came in last time, but I can help clarify anything.  My opinion might not be as strong here as others if you are just getting feedback.

You obviously know our history, and the test soaks that took place, so I won't regurgitate any of that.

A couple of things though since we are talking:

• the Limelight "Christmas Tree" light problem was resolved in 2012.  That was where one light went out, and they all went out.  They also switch them to backside servicable, which essentially solved the water getting behind the lenses
• The Marino and Vanto are, I believe what you meant.  The Tarino would be a little less
• Again, as a previous BF dealer, I don't have anything negative to say about them as a product... not my style.  Massage is relative.  But wet tests and who you do business with should greatly matter
• The new Salt system cartridge is roughly $90 with your discounts, but I suspect you would get 6 months per cartridge (on the new Freshwater Salt) if you continue to keep ozone in your spa
• Water care is relatively straight forward.  Between all the different systems available to you, we should have no issue finding something that works for your friends and you, salt, spa marvel, nature 2, or otherwise

Regarding the Flash, that's outside, so we keep it low, but I was hoping my guys (I was out of town) would have raised it prior to you coming... Raincheck if you want.  Everything is working on it, it must have had the diverter or something not quite in the right position.  I just checked on it.

Thanks Sean, if you need anything you know where to find us.  Or me...

FYI, this is Nick K.

[Hottubguy]

Well I'm back six months later...

Finally got around to wet testing today.  Working with my local Hot Springs dealer (who apparently lurks on here - so "hi!"), I tried out an Envoy, a Marino, a Flash, and a Jetsetter.

Mostly trying to decide whether loungers were important or not, whether salt water was critical, etc.  I love the concept of a lounger but can't seem to stay fixed in place.  Really liked the Moto-Massage in the first (3 person) tub I sat in, but wasn't a huge fan in the Envoy.  I think maybe it was a configuration issue.  Some of the tubs were not really ready for wet testing - two had low water temps (85 and 96) and half the jets on the Flash were not working (I'm new to hot tubbing or I would have known how to fix it).

I was originally thinking about the Marino (new) for $6500 all-in (and with lots of accessories), or the Tarino, but they had a 2007 Grandee and a 2014 Flair each for $7k all-in.  Really waffled between the two, but ultimately I put down a $500 deposit on the Flair.  Still need to make sure my deck is sufficiently reinforced to handle the weight (it's a fair bit heavier than what I had planned).  And now I'm reading that the 2014 (or earlier?) Flair's had issues with their LED lighting.  Hopefully I mis-read or it was fixed during the refurbishment.

I would have actually preferred the Grandee, but it's at the extreme edge of whether it would fit, and the layout was far from optimal (lounge would be facing a house wall unless I had it craned to my upper deck).  The Flair is better in both regards.

Much as I'm intrigued by the Bullfrog concept (and prices), their layouts really didn't work great for my placement - half the seats would be facing a house wall or the neighbor's house).  For some odd reason, most of the Hot Springs/Caldera spas have good or excellent seat placement for my location.  I'm still curious if Bullfrog's massage action is better or not.  I have persistent lower back and neck pain and am hoping a hot tub will help to reduce it.

Some of my family and friends that might use the tub have sensitive skin.  Am I making a big mistake not going for a salt water system (it does have ozone, if that matters)?  I didn't notice anything, but three of the four tubs I tested were salt.  The dealer mentioned for the 2014 Flair, it was an old style salt system that worked fine but was super expensive for consumables/supplies, so I'd be spending $1k every year or two to replace the cartridge.  As opposed to the new system that's apparently like $90 a year.

Anyway, sorry for another long-winded post, but wanted to say "thanks" for those that responded and not abandon this thread without an update.  Would love feedback on salt water systems or anything else I need to think about, and otherwise, I'll post as I get further along in the process.

For what it's worth I'm met d00nut multiple times now and there probably isn't a more dedicated person (or family for that matter) in the spa industry.  I'm met a bunch of dealers in my time and besides me (lol) there probably isn't a dealer I've met more passion it about this industry and as knowledge filled as him and his Mother and Father

[d00nut]

For what it's worth I'm met d00nut multiple times now and there probably isn't a more dedicated person (or family for that matter) in the spa industry.  I'm met a bunch of dealers in my time and besides me (lol) there probably isn't a dealer I've met more passion it about this industry and as knowledge filled as him and his Mother and Father

Thank you sir . Ditto!  Family in the business... never getting out!  Until my time on this earth is done at least...