How to Negotiate and Buy a Hot tub.

[empolgation]

Fantastic post Zz!

This helps put into perspective the repair cost of a spa after the warranty runs out. Thank You.

Keep 'em coming.

[doodoo]

great thought Zz.

Had not thought about rodents and other 'critters' entering and making a home in the cavity of my spa. Bounce sheets is a great idea, could moth balls also be used. I'm even thinking about putting some poison there to make certain that little rodents permanently stay away. Sorry to the rodent lover, but yuck!

[IOWASPAMAN]

Poison will just kill them in the cabinet and then you have there rotting carcasses in your spa cabinet to stink up the place. My record is 8 bodies pulled from a cabinet after the owner put poison in there. Try a mesh wire, bounce dryer sheets lose effectiveness after a couple weeks. Moth balls are good, but moth cakes are better. Many times I've seen moths balls pushed away by the critters.

[superted]

The Coleman neck collar is not as much pressure as some of the other jets because it is above the water line. You may have a kink in a hose, but I have a c-480 deluxe on my show room and there is a difference between the neck collar and the rest of zone therapy. If the valve is all the way open and there are no kinks, look to see if there is a difference between collar on pump #1 and collar on pump # 2. Pump #1 is connected to filtration for skimming and suction, while pump #2 is suction only and there will be a difference in presure there also. Even though this spa has two-dual speed 3h.p. continous duty pumps there is only so much water you push up and over the water line. Over the years customers have stated the pressure is great, while some competitors have said it does nothing but clean ears. I quess that is all a matter of who is using. For some too strong for others weak, but nothing targets the muscles like a Coleman.

[superted]

Full foam is not quieter in my showroom. A Jacuzzi j-365 is much louder than a c-480 deluxe Iam sitting next to them right now. As far as efficency I removed a Coleman 447 and put a Jacuzzi Premium J-360 (last year) and my electric bill went up. I have also seen leaks in both spas. As a service guy for ten years I have seen leaks in many spas and Coleman is easier to fix (less foam to dig) however most leaks are caused by improper water chemistry eating at the silicone not the plumbing flexing. The majority of the leaks I have seen are at the seal against the shell not at a glued plumbing joint. The biggest down side to a Coleman is not the insullation, or concieved lack thereof it is the seating. If you fit it is the most comfortable spa I have ever been in, if you do not, well than what good is strong jets, a steel frame, thermo barrier insulator, abs pan bottom. In the end wet test, wet test, wet test. Know what you are buying, a good warranty and a local dealer is better than buying a top 5 brand that is to far away from you to service your needs. The consumer does not deal with Coleman or Jacuzzi or Hot springs or Brand X it is with their local dealer who represents the product and deals with all the warranty issues.

[ZzTop]

Full foam is not quieter in my showroom. A Jacuzzi j-365 is much louder than a c-480 deluxe Iam sitting next to them right now. As far as efficency I removed a Coleman 447 and put a Jacuzzi Premium J-360 (last year) and my electric bill went up. I have also seen leaks in both spas. As a service guy for ten years I have seen leaks in many spas and Coleman is easier to fix (less foam to dig) however most leaks are caused by improper water chemistry eating at the silicone not the plumbing flexing. The majority of the leaks I have seen are at the seal against the shell not at a glued plumbing joint. The biggest down side to a Coleman is not the insullation, or concieved lack thereof it is the seating. If you fit it is the most comfortable spa I have ever been in, if you do not, well than what good is strong jets, a steel frame, thermo barrier insulator, abs pan bottom. In the end wet test, wet test, wet test. Know what you are buying, a good warranty and a local dealer is better than buying a top 5 brand that is to far away from you to service your needs. The consumer does not deal with Coleman or Jacuzzi or Hot springs or Brand X it is with their local dealer who represents the product and deals with all the warranty issues.

When a Spa is new the pumps run smoothly and quietly, give em a year and then check the vibration and noise.
I have to question your remark about water chemistry versus lack of plumbing support.  As a tub ages all the plastic plumbing will be subject to chemicals which tends to make the plastic brittle over time.  Adding vibration only hastens the potential for a leak.  The greatest shock to the pipes is when the pump is turned on.  Full foam does a much better job of holding and absording this shock.
Beyond the use of silicone there should be a rubber gasket to seal the jets to the tub.
 
As a dealer your only concern is getting past the warranty period.

regards Zz

[rick]

Superted, thanks for your post.  I agree about the seating in the 480.  The therapy seats are definitely not made for a big guy.  The deeper seated therapy seat is almost perfect for me but if I had wider shoulders I;d have to slouch down in the seat as I do for the higher seated therapy seat.  (the shell in these seats jut out around the neck area, cramping one's seating if one is too tall or has wide shoulders)
I don't have any kinks in my lines either , regarding the neck jets in these seats.  They definitely don't put out that much pressure and it's a shame that Coleman couldn't get more pressure to these jets.  And yes, there is a slight difference in pressure between these jets in the 2 different seats.  The higher seated seat, (pump 1), puts out a bit more pressure in the neck jets than the other seat, but they are both negligible. I would have to agree with the competitors on this one, that they're only good for cleaning my ears!  
But with these faults, I still love this spa overall.  
Coleman's filtration system is its biggest forte in my opinion.

[ZzTop]

Re Full Foam vs Thermopane

Full foam offers the highest potential insulating value.  It supports the plumbing (has less leaks) and insulates it from pipe movement and vibration.  It offers quieter operation.  It inhibits insects and mice from living in the cavity surrounding the tub.

Note: Our houses are fully insulated, (No Air Space in the walls), . . and we don’t leave off the interior drywall so that you can get to the plumbing lines to repair leaks.  If your contractor told you he was just going to put just foil in your 6" exterior walls would you let him?  Think about it.

Fridges are fully Foamed to maximize their R rating.  The more foam the better.

Coleman coolers are FULLY FOAMED!

A Thermos has space inside it but it is in a VACUUM.  Thermopane does not use a vacuum.

It makes absolutely NO sense to not support the plumbing lines with a little or no insulation in a Thermopane design.

Having pumps, wires and electronics operating in 100 plus degrees of constant heat cannot be good for their longevity.

While both systems work, the greatest long term problem is rigid support of the plumbing especially at the jets.  Each time the pumps are turned on there is a shock to the pipes which can stress the pipe where it is attached to the jet fitting.  As the tub ages these problems become apparent in some designs where no  or very little foam is used for support of the pipes.

Advantages of Thermopane:

If you like your mice dry roasted it is a great design.  It might be good for dehydrating meat and fruit, any one for some rodent Jerky? Oh yeah I almost forgot . . .you can keep your towels warm.

Yes, you can get at and fix a leak easier.  It seems that there are far fewer leaks in a full foam tub.   Just ask the guys that repair them.

It costs less to manufacture a Thermopane design., Foam is expensive.

Now Martha is the jury still out?

It also should be mentioned  that it is better to fully insulate all four sides of a Spa, than three, and that the greatest heat loss in a spa is at the waters surface.
So a Spa blanket and and a very well insulated Spa Cover are very big factors in fully insulating your spa and will be reflected in your total energy costs.

ps: You folks in sunny Florida might want to ignore some of this rant as us Northern folks just don't have your kind of weather.

Regards Zz

[doodoo]

Re Full Foam vs Thermopane

If you like your mice dry roasted it is a great design.  It might be good for dehydrating meat and fruit, any one for some rodent Jerky? Oh yeah I almost forgot . . .you can keep your towels warm.

ps: You folks in sunny Florida might want to ignore some of this rant as us Northern folks just don't have your kind of weather.

Regards Zz

Rodent jerky......with a glass of champagne perhaps?  

I love our kind of northern weather. Nothing like sitting in a tub dead of winter with snow sprinkling down.  

[Brewman]

I love our kind of northern weather. Nothing like sitting in a tub dead of winter with snow sprinkling down.  

AMEN BROTHER!!!!

[ZzTop]

HowTo Protect your Spa Cover:

303 Aerospace Protectant is the product to use to protect from Ultraviolet damage.   Here is their Web site address:  www.303warehouse.com  and www.303-products.com

Do not use Armorall  it has been reported to destroy the stitching on the cover and you will find Black Magic to be very oily which will attact dirt.

How to protect your Hot Tub Cover.  
 
Use 303 Protectant on the top and underside of the cover too.  
 
303 is the best Ultraviolet protectant on the market and also  helps keep mildew from growing,  
   
Also use a Spa Blanket which keeps the moisture from getting into the cover as well as helps to insulate the tub.  
   
If you are using a cover lifter, you can velcro it on the opening side and it will fold over with the cover when you open it which makes it easy to handle.  
 
Another idea for storing the spa blanket is to use two plastic potato chip bag closers attached to a wall and simply hang it out of the way when you use the hot tub.  
 
You will find that the spa chemicals will eventually rot the spa blanket which is inexpensive and easy to replace instead of a new Hot Tub cover.  
 

[ZzTop]

Re Sand and Grit in the bottom of the Spa

The least expensive device to use is three and one half feet of cut garden hose.  Put your thumb on one end and drop the other end over the grit you want to pick up.  Take your finger off the other end, pick up the grit, put you finger back on the hose end and remove the hose and the grit.

A turkey baster works well and is inexpensive.

I do not like garden hose siphons (used for swimming pools), which are hooked up to a water supply because they will introduce fresh water into your spa upsetting your chemical balance.

Or try the grit gitter  See Link:
http://www.spapartsdepot.com/cgi-bin/cshop/spaparts/spapartshow.tam?xax=982561&pagenumber%2Eptx=1&category%2Ectx=Spa%20Vac

Or the Paradise Spa Vacuum, very well made but pricey.  See link: http://www.hottubessentials.ca/spa_supplies_wand_vacuum.asp

Having a foot tray of water for use before entering the spa is a great idea.

Re pavers and sand.  You can take a shop vacuum and vac up the excess sand which really helps.  I find that ants tend to push up the sand, an insecticide might solve that problem.

[Lori]

Do not use Armorall  it has been reported to destroy the stitching on the cover and you will find Black Magic to be very oily which will attact dirt.
 

  

It is the silicone in Armorall which attracts the dust.  Not the oils!

[ZzTop]

It is the silicone in Armorall which attracts the dust.  Not the oils!

Hi Lori, I was refering to Black Magic being oily.

[Lori]

Oops!  

Sorry, I never heard of Black Magic.  I thought you were refering to Armorall as Black Magic!

My fault!