Running costs

[swilly1000]

....and watching guys like Swilly come and go in a year or so.

We shall see.

[The Wizard of Spas]

So you will be pleased to know our Master Spa HL8 here in the Uk has been up and running nearly 3 weeks now. To give some real life running costs i metered the spa daily. We have it set to 39°C constantly or  102°F.

The ambient temperature outside is around 15°C or  59°F daytime nearer 10°C on an evening. We only use it mainly on an evening when its dark as the view is superb and its extra peaceful at that time of night. We use it for around 2hrs every night..
On the odd day we havent used it the spa uses 5to 6 kwh of electricity maintaining 39 degrees . On the days its in use it uses 10 to 12 kwh.
In monetary terms it uses £0.80 per day ticking over maintaining and £1.60 per day in full use. ($1 to $2 ) . The build quality i find to be excellent in every respect. On tickover it is barely noticable its hush quiet. On full its pretty quiet too. The insulated cover works superbly. The temperature barely alters at all covered. Im not sure how that compares to other peoples warmer climates but i am very happy with our choice. We have an excellent well respected dealer which i know is important. Here in the UK we dont hear of any problems with Master Spas like apparently you do in the USA. I have talked personally to many people who have them and they cannot speak highly enough of their ownership experiences. The forums over here are full of complaints of substandard Chinese made spas. We also have lots of online companies just selling cheap spas here (no showrooms). People are so focussed just on cost. You would be pushed to find any bad MasterSpa reviews here and that seems strange. I understand the tent sales problems you experience but in fairness Master Spa does tend to get slated on a regular basis and to a point where it becomes unbelievable. Jetting wise its not as powerful as some out there i know but it certainly has the power to give a fantastic massage. Chemical wise we are using bromine to sanitise. Bromine tablets in the inline filter. The chemical levels have been easy to maintain since the initial fill up where TA and PH were sky high on the first day . We are slightly limited here compared to the USA and Canada on the many manufacturers but we couldnt be happier with our little piece of opulence. Im sure it will give us great service for many years to come judging by the reputation they have here too. Whatever Hot tub you have enjoy. Happy hot tubbing 😁. Mike

In the hopes of steering the conversation back to the original topic, I'd appreciate more information on your data.  Can you provide more context to the readers who may visit this post in the future or may be looking at going with Master Spas, or those that are looking to get general information on the cost to run a hot tub but do not know what real questions to ask to apply to general stats / rates?

-Cover thickness, foam density that you have
-Overall insulation (full or partial, open or closed cell, etc)
-Amperage of your motors
-Base of the tub - Is it a pan?  Is there a foam ring between the shell and cabinet?
-Cabinet insulation?
-Usage habits:  How long are you using it per session?  How many sessions per week?
-Spa location:  Is it on a concrete patio?  Is it elevated on a deck?  Is it covered or in direct sunlight? 
-What is the energy cost / hour (or kWh) in your location.  This is possibly the most important question.

While numbers are great, context is even better.  This is the real stuff that manufacturers do not really note, and to be fair, the sheer volume of variables always begs the question - what context is [monetary rate] being applied to, situation-wise. 

To the novice, you can and should ask these questions about any manufacturer if you're looking to get the most complete view of what cost is.  I hope this helps those that are interested in really diving into beyond the numbers to understand "why" and "how" data is compiled, and conveyed.

Thanks!

[Sam]

Who doesn't love a good master spa thread?   

By the way, consumer affairs is b.s.  Read the links below to learn more, but basically master hired them to help with their terrible reputation.  They deceptively named themselves to capitalize on the reputation of consumer reports which is a legitimate consumer advocate that doesn't take money from companies or extort them to protect their reputation.  They imply they are a consumer watchdog but they are not.  Consumer affairs is another shady company.  Of course master is in business with them. 

https://www.truthinadvertising.org/consumer-affairs-com/

https://www.minclaw.com/remove-defamation-consumeraffairs-com/

https://www.hitecpet.com/consumer-affairs-dot-com.html



If I'm given the choice between two companies with similar products, I'm going with the one that does business the right way and that ain't master spas

[Holgmi585281]

[The tub is sat on an elevated wooden decking not surrounded by an enclosure. It's open to the elements as you will see the picture I posted in show us your hot tub.

It's got a standard 5inch to 3 inch tapered cover for insulation.
Inside the cabinet I'll say partial foam as the whole tub isn't filled, most of it is and it's got a thermal wrap around that too.

I didn't look into the technical amperage of the motors so I'll pass on that.. Its got a 24hr circ pump and two further pumps. 54 jets.

We use it every evening pretty much unless it's raining heavily. Approx 2 hours at a time with the odd cigarette break in between.

Our Kwh cost in the UK is £0.13 pence per Kwh Inc tax and then a daily standing charge of £0.22 pence Inc tax.  On the 8th July the first full month bill is due so I will update actual month cost. My estimate so far is that it will be around £50 give or take a few pounds but that was for the initial heat up from cold too. Seems to be very efficient to me with the research I found here in the UK.

[swilly1000]

Who doesn't love a good master spa thread?   

By the way, consumer affairs is b.s.  Read the links below to learn more, but basically master hired them to help with their terrible reputation.  They deceptively named themselves to capitalize on the reputation of consumer reports which is a legitimate consumer advocate that doesn't take money from companies or extort them to protect their reputation.  They imply they are a consumer watchdog but they are not.  Consumer affairs is another shady company.  Of course master is in business with them. 

https://www.truthinadvertising.org/consumer-affairs-com/

https://www.minclaw.com/remove-defamation-consumeraffairs-com/

https://www.hitecpet.com/consumer-affairs-dot-com.html



If I'm given the choice between two companies with similar products, I'm going with the one that does business the right way and that ain't master spas

Yes, a good Master thread is so invigorating

I don't think it's any secret that Consumer Affairs is a thinly veiled rip-off of Consumer Reports.  Master isn't the only company that may be in business with them and the general shadiness of the entire industry can be brought into the discussion if we are going to continue to tar Master's reputation by tying them to CA.

I agree that "If I'm given the choice between two companies with similar products, I'm going with the one that does business the right way..." but I bet that Master blows away most brands for the jetting performance.  It's a well built performance machine.  It's way better than a lot of the others, so you're not meeting the "If" part of your condition.  Master is a better product than most, so I'm going with the better product without regard to tent sales and what not. 

I bought mine at a reputable big dealer so none of the "sales practices" is relevant to me. 

I love how people invent badness about the build quality.  They are reaching to tarnish the name because they are po'ed about sales practices.  This very thread should (but won't) address concerns about insulation/running costs.  By the way, my favorite invention is the "flimsy" cabinets hahaha, keep reaching around, it's funny.

[Spatech_tuo]

Master is a better product than most, so I'm going with the better product without regard to tent sales and what not. 

I bought mine at a reputable big dealer so none of the "sales practices" is relevant to me. 

I love how people invent badness about the build quality.  They are reaching to tarnish the name because they are po'ed about sales practices.  This very thread should (but won't) address concerns about insulation/running costs.  By the way, my favorite invention is the "flimsy" cabinets hahaha, keep reaching around, it's funny.

1) Your opinion that Master is "a better product than most" is your opinion and while its a sample of 1, you're obviously entitled to it.

2) Others aren't "inventing" badness, they are giving their opinion which they are also entitled to.



You can't stand up for your opinion while discounting everyone else's.

[swilly1000]

I'm saying that it is better than most and you and many others are saying that it's not.  Those declarations are being made, plain and simple.  As you say, we are all entitled to our opinions.  I'm not discounting your opinion. 

I'm rebutting incorrect and baseless claims with facts.  Holgmi585281 already provided a rigorous calculation of hydro use, which speaks to insulation and power efficiency of the tub.  His conclusion based on factual observation is that it is not energy inefficient as so many here have claimed.  I then did a rough analysis, not so rigorous but passes the smell test, and concluded that it is costing me around $50/mth to run the tub.  Seems pretty reasonable to me.

Both of these analyses completely contradict the baseless claims made that Master has crappy insulation and is a power hungry inefficient tub.  And what does Holgmi585281 get back for the effort he expended in his factual analysis?  That he is a fake!  Absolutely ridiculous.  Those baseless claims and the dismissive rejection of his work are mostly certainly INVENTING BADNESS!!!!!

FYI my other favorite is that Master Spas are really noisy.  What a joke.

[The Wizard of Spas]

[The tub is sat on an elevated wooden decking not surrounded by an enclosure. It's open to the elements as you will see the picture I posted in show us your hot tub.

It's got a standard 5inch to 3 inch tapered cover for insulation.
Inside the cabinet I'll say partial foam as the whole tub isn't filled, most of it is and it's got a thermal wrap around that too.

I didn't look into the technical amperage of the motors so I'll pass on that.. Its got a 24hr circ pump and two further pumps. 54 jets.

We use it every evening pretty much unless it's raining heavily. Approx 2 hours at a time with the odd cigarette break in between.

Our Kwh cost in the UK is £0.13 pence per Kwh Inc tax and then a daily standing charge of £0.22 pence Inc tax.  On the 8th July the first full month bill is due so I will update actual month cost. My estimate so far is that it will be around £50 give or take a few pounds but that was for the initial heat up from cold too. Seems to be very efficient to me with the research I found here in the UK.

Thanks for the follow-up.  This will help others understand what to look for beyond the usual numbers to really get a feel for what to expect.  Furthermore, it hopefully will illuminate others as to what to ask when discussing efficiency, which I cannot stress enough, has so many variables involved that you really need to do your homework, read the fine print, and become educated.  Hopefully this helps keep the focus on the topic at hand.

[bud16415]

I don’t normally get involved in this nonsense, but will make an exception.

I have a top of the line Caldera tub and I did my own install and to be honest was not overly impressed at what I found inside my 12k tub. I have a strong design background and expected some things of better quality than what I found. I have had one failure in 6 years of operation and it was a 39cent hose clamp that should have been a quality $1.49 clamp. The bottom line is I still love the tub and it is doing what is expected of it. I feel I have a 12k tub that could have been easily an 8k tub with plenty of profit for Watkins the parent company. But these are luxury items and the price is set by what the market will allow. An 8k tub to my way of thinking is likely a 5k tub etc.

I drive a KIA soul and it is a wonderful little car that gets me from point A to B. I’m not comparing it to a Lexus That also takes you from point A to B for a lot more money.

These tubs are what they are and the people selling and servicing them are who they are. I was not really happy when I bought my tub I looked at 2 of 3 companies selling in my area. I was told about good service etc. and I was quite surprised when it was delivered it was the 3rd company that showed up to deliver it. I asked what was going on and they said oh we deliver all their tubs and do all their service. I have built a relationship with the company I didn’t give my business to I the end.

In the end it is buyer beware with all things and if I ever buy another tub I will be a much smarter consumer and I thought I was smart the first time around.   

[Holgmi585281]

Quite simply its solidly built, feels quality and looks quality too. You can see from the picture in show us your hot tub section of how its situated . The UK is a cool to mild place to live and especially here where i live its breezy most of the time. Probably something to do with the coast and elevation. It performs superbly in my climate so i bet your bottom dollar it performs better in a warmer climate.

Energy hog it certainly is not and my real world data proves it . You are probably best just complaining about the tent sales problems because that is the only thing you could knock Master Spa tubs with. I absolutely love it and have made the right choice . I have never been a sheep and followed the masses and there are definitely as i can see in this thread two sides to every story . Aside from the tent sales which Swilly points out and i have to agree i dont give two hoots about  as it doesnt affect me all the other reasons you state Master Spas falls down on are outright lies.

Hopefully some newbies looking for an alternative will read this and buy one also. It is no wonder most newcomers do not stay around long if this is what they are met with.

[Holgmi585281]

[The tub is sat on an elevated wooden decking not surrounded by an enclosure. It's open to the elements as you will see the picture I posted in show us your hot tub.

It's got a standard 5inch to 3 inch tapered cover for insulation.
Inside the cabinet I'll say partial foam as the whole tub isn't filled, most of it is and it's got a thermal wrap around that too.

I didn't look into the technical amperage of the motors so I'll pass on that.. Its got a 24hr circ pump and two further pumps. 54 jets.

We use it every evening pretty much unless it's raining heavily. Approx 2 hours at a time with the odd cigarette break in between.

Our Kwh cost in the UK is £0.13 pence per Kwh Inc tax and then a daily standing charge of £0.22 pence Inc tax.  On the 8th July the first full month bill is due so I will update actual month cost. My estimate so far is that it will be around £50 give or take a few pounds but that was for the initial heat up from cold too. Seems to be very efficient to me with the research I found here in the UK.

Thanks for the follow-up.  This will help others understand what to look for beyond the usual numbers to really get a feel for what to expect.  Furthermore, it hopefully will illuminate others as to what to ask when discussing efficiency, which I cannot stress enough, has so many variables involved that you really need to do your homework, read the fine print, and become educated.  Hopefully this helps keep the focus on the topic at hand.

Ah the tub is also sat on 4 x 6ft x 4ft 17mm heavy duty rubber mats like you find in horse stables. Primarily that was to offset any vibration that may occur. It doesnt resonate at all though so i have no complaints .Im very happy

[Sam]

Both of these analyses completely contradict the baseless claims made that Master has crappy insulation and is a power hungry inefficient tub.  And what does Holgmi585281 get back for the effort he expended in his factual analysis?  That he is a fake!  Absolutely ridiculous.  Those baseless claims and the dismissive rejection of his work are mostly certainly INVENTING BADNESS!!!!!

FYI my other favorite is that Master Spas are really noisy.  What a joke.

Edited - decided not to engage in argument

[Holgmi585281]

Both of these analyses completely contradict the baseless claims made that Master has crappy insulation and is a power hungry inefficient tub.  And what does Holgmi585281 get back for the effort he expended in his factual analysis?  That he is a fake!  Absolutely ridiculous.  Those baseless claims and the dismissive rejection of his work are mostly certainly INVENTING BADNESS!!!!!

FYI my other favorite is that Master Spas are really noisy.  What a joke.

Except that he already said it's not fully filled with foam and all of the top brands generally listed on here are indeed fully foamed without the gaps that he is seeing.  If he put fully foamed spa like a hot spring or Artesian in place of that master spa I guarantee it would use less energy.  And no disrespect but you and he have significantly less experience and data to compare it to other brands so while the spa may be good for you, what exactly are you comparing it to?

I've been in the industry over 20 years.  I've sold master spas.  I've been in master spas.  I've got the same experience with another 8 or 9 other brands.  I rate most of them above master spas.  Their cabinets are crap and they are louder than other spas.  I've seen it first hand.  Their ecopur filtration system is worthless.

So here we have:
less insulation
cheaper flimsy cabinets
louder
worthless filtration system
shady business practices

And while their top models have powerful jets, they are just off the shelf CMP jets.  Other companies jets are designed to work within and for their systems and offer a better feel in many cases.


So as stated many times over.  Master makes a perfectly fine spa, but there others that are better in a lot of categories.  Others that do business the right way. I'm glad you enjoy your spa but but you quite simply do not have the exposure to other products and companies to make a comparison.

Sam i am here you know, does it make it less real to you if you ignore my presence lol. You need to get a grip and find a career that you enjoy. This career choice has made you very bitter .

In my career there are many differences in how things are done. What we do not do is ever slag off the competition. It makes one look unprofessional.

Just listening and reading of the hate im surprised anyone would buy a hot tub of you . I certainly wouldnt..
If i had said it was fully foamed you would have hit me with aaaah the pipes are all covered so any problems it would cost a fortune to repair lol. There is absolutely nothing flimsy about the panels, its definitely not loud and the filtration keeps my water sparkling and clean. Maybe you moved jobs because there was more money in repairing the other spas.
Where are the Master Spa repair help questions on this ancient forum eh .

[Spatech_tuo]

As you say, we are all entitled to our opinions.  I'm not discounting your opinion. 

Previous post by you: "I love how people invent badness about the build quality.  "

and

"I'm rebutting incorrect and baseless claims with facts." Your experience is just that, yours. Just because you may not have experienced certain circumstances in your 1 spa does not mean they don't exist in a few/some/many others.

Speak for yourself and allow others have have their own opinions and experiences.

[Sam]

Both of these analyses completely contradict the baseless claims made that Master has crappy insulation and is a power hungry inefficient tub.  And what does Holgmi585281 get back for the effort he expended in his factual analysis?  That he is a fake!  Absolutely ridiculous.  Those baseless claims and the dismissive rejection of his work are mostly certainly INVENTING BADNESS!!!!!

FYI my other favorite is that Master Spas are really noisy.  What a joke.

Except that he already said it's not fully filled with foam and all of the top brands generally listed on here are indeed fully foamed without the gaps that he is seeing.  If he put fully foamed spa like a hot spring or Artesian in place of that master spa I guarantee it would use less energy.  And no disrespect but you and he have significantly less experience and data to compare it to other brands so while the spa may be good for you, what exactly are you comparing it to?

I've been in the industry over 20 years.  I've sold master spas.  I've been in master spas.  I've got the same experience with another 8 or 9 other brands.  I rate most of them above master spas.  Their cabinets are crap and they are louder than other spas.  I've seen it first hand.  Their ecopur filtration system is worthless.

So here we have:
less insulation
cheaper flimsy cabinets
louder
worthless filtration system
shady business practices

And while their top models have powerful jets, they are just off the shelf CMP jets.  Other companies jets are designed to work within and for their systems and offer a better feel in many cases.


So as stated many times over.  Master makes a perfectly fine spa, but there others that are better in a lot of categories.  Others that do business the right way. I'm glad you enjoy your spa but but you quite simply do not have the exposure to other products and companies to make a comparison.

Sam i am here you know, does it make it less real to you if you ignore my presence lol. You need to get a grip and find a career that you enjoy. This career choice has made you very bitter .

In my career there are many differences in how things are done. What we do not do is ever slag off the competition. It makes one look unprofessional.

Just listening and reading of the hate im surprised anyone would buy a hot tub of you . I certainly wouldnt..
If i had said it was fully foamed you would have hit me with aaaah the pipes are all covered so any problems it would cost a fortune to repair lol. There is absolutely nothing flimsy about the panels, its definitely not loud and the filtration keeps my water sparkling and clean. Maybe you moved jobs because there was more money in repairing the other spas.
Where are the Master Spa repair help questions on this ancient forum eh .

Not bitter at all and love my job.  My post history is pretty positive and I speak highly of any brand that I think highly of.  I consistently speak well of brands that I don't sell.  I provide my  opinions that were formed by significant experience in the subject matter being discussed. If Cal Spa and Master Spa come up, that opinion is negative.  If my experience with them were better,  I would speak of them as I do Marquis, Hot Spring, Bullfrog, Dimension One, Artesian.  My experience tells me those brands are good, energy efficient, reliable, provide excellent customer service and do business fairly and honestly.

Someone mentioned above that they improved the cabinet recently.  Great!  That's a step in the right direction.  I'm not sure why you and swilly are taking it personally that most of the experienced professionals here think master spa is a middle of the pack manufacturer.  I'm glad you are happy.  I'm sure that there are happy Fiat car owners too.  Doesn't change my opinion that they aren't very good.  I'm not trying to be disrespectful or condescending.  I'm just providing an honest, informed opinion.  I'm sorry that this offends you and swilly.  It isn't meant to.  You are free to disregard my opinion.  This is a discussion board.  A place for people to discuss a specific topic and share their opinions.  I've done so with mine and my post history speaks for itself.