Help With Final Decision Requested

[zacman]

After about two months of looking and wet testing, I think we are ready to bite the bullet if we can get a reasonable -fair price. . Don't need the absolute bargain but want to be within 400-500 of what others here have paid.  And there are warehouse type sales this weekend at 2-3 dealers. So, I am asking for input on a few items to assist me with the final decision, and to possibly correct my own initial impressions and conclusions.  Have looked at HS, S-Dance, D-1, Caldera, Tiger River, Jacuzzi, Coleman, and a few other less well known brands.  After wet testing several, now looking closely at SD Optima, HS Vanguard, (also liked the seating arrangement for Tiger River Caspian - but only comes with redwood cabinet), but am open to others.  As we live in the Country - all dealers will be about 50 miles away - the dealers seem to be about the same though kind of liked the SD dealer.  May re-wet test just before deciding. ..

We will buy whatever you all can asssist me with selecting, and OK if preferred models within $400 of each other - i.e., OK to pay about that much more for one model if clearly a better choice.  I really don't care about the aroma therapy, water fall type features. . .and misc bells and whistles.  Anyway, the considerations -

Ozonator:  I think the edge goes to the HS system

Filtering:    Like the S-Dance micro-filtering, but HS has the no-by pass feature

Cabinets:  Seem about the same, though the HS model gray color perfectly matches pool house siding

Cover lifters:  HS seemed to have a better model than SD, but may not be a big deal.

Shell and warranties: seem similar

Jets / moto -massage:  I just have not been able to effectively compare all of the different competing jets available - a bit confusing - so really need help here. . .

Foot well - liked the foot well dome in the SD Optima with double jets for each person, liked that you can brace your self against it.

Steps - all seem OK

Heaters ?  just don't know

LED lighting - seem similar ?

What am I not considering ?  Both would include delivery and set up.

Controls ? Ease of use ? locations make a difference ?

Energy use ? any difference ?

I have some concern re the 5 wire requirement with HS as I already have 220 4 wire (including ground) service to the existing pad (where the old spa was) in 1" pvc electrical conduit and not sure if I can pull two more wires through.  Have # 8 wires now, about 45 feet from existing panel.  Would add the GFI panel. (included with HS, not with S-Dance - though may get it thrown in)

Finally, as about 75% of the time it will just be used by the two of us. . . should I be considering smaller models as well ? Don't want loungers - had in last spa (16 years ago - a Calspa)  and not used that much. . . sorry for all of the questions, but ready to buy and need to be tipped one way or the other. . . Have not wet tested the Caldera or Coleman models. . Thanks - great forum.

[Brewman]

What size GFI breaker was protecting your old spa?
Most spas I looked at required a 50 amp breaker (I set mine up for the optional 60 amp breaker).  The minimum wire gauge for a 50 amp feed would be 6 gauge.  You may need to run larger wire.  I think 8 gauge is good for 40 amps or less.   The Optima can be set to run on a 30 amp breaker, but I wouldn't want it that way.  Other brands may vary
Something to keep in mind.
Brewman

[Spatech_tuo]

I have some concern re the 5 wire requirement with HS as I already have 220 4 wire (including ground) service to the existing pad (where the old spa was) in 1" pvc electrical conduit and not sure if I can pull two more wires through.  Have # 8 wires now, about 45 feet from existing panel.  Would add the GFI panel. (included with HS, not with S-Dance - though may get it thrown in)

It seems like you have a photo finish on this one. I'm not sure anyone can answer this for you as in the end you have to make the final choice between the 2 finalists. However, you may be mistaken on the wiring issue you speak of. On the Hot Springs you need 4 wires (3 + grnd) from the main to the sub panel. From the sub panel to the spa you may need to pull wire differently that what you now have but if you think you need to modify what you have from the main to the sub panel I think you'll find you're fine as you are.

[zacman]

I believe there is a 40 amp breaker for the #8 wires that I used for the Calspa.  I could possibly lubricate and pull new #6 wires - through the conduit - would need to pull throu about 45 feet I guess and thru 2 -90 degree sweep elbows - under a concrete pad.  I would probably tie the new #6 wires to the old #8 wire(s) and lubricate and pull - if something went wrong with that would use fish tape.  Assume a 1" conduit would suffice for new # 6 wires.  Would end up with 4 wires (including the ground).  I recall the HS dealer indicating I would need five wires (plus ground -not certain but will check on that in the installation material he provided)?  Due to heater and pumps on different breakers at the GFI sub panel.  Thanks for your responses - very helpful

[bulmer4nc]

I say wet test them again... Both SD and HS are great spas so it'll probably all come down to which feels better for you.   We got the Optima as it really did feel right for us.  I personally didn't really like the moto-massage but there are a lot of people on here that love it.  As for things like cover lifters, lights, steps, etc...  None of that stuff is really spacific to any one tub so I'd take them out of your decision making.

[Brewman]

You should be able to pull #6 wire thru that conduit.  
Your 1" conduit will be fine for this size wire, at least up to the 4 wire configuration.  Probably okay for 5 wire, too.  
One more piece to confuse you- if you do opt for the Optima, it only needs a 3 wire feed- 2 hots and the ground.  No need for a neutral on this spa.  A couple other Sundance tubs are this way, but some are 4 wire.  
Not sure if other spa brands use the three wires.  Most others I looked at needed 4.  So for sure leave the wiring until you purchase a specific spa, just to be sure.

Brewman

[newtotubbing]

I would check back to the Hot Spring 2004 Pre-delivery instructions.  I read it and see that a Vista and Grandee require #8 for L1, L2 and Neutral and #10 for the ground to go from the main panel to the sub panel (provided that it is 100 ft or less) and then #10 and #12 to go to the spa (50ft or less).  I am not sure if this is 100% but that is what I read.

Godd luck with your decision.

Jonathan

[zacman]

I just reviewed the HS pre-delivery booklet.  Interesting.  It shows a 50Amp breaker in the main panel, with four wires going to the GFI sub panel: #8 white, #10 green ground, and two # 8 wires for the load (blue and red).  The GFI sub panel which is supplied by HS has a 20 amp and a 30 amp breaker.  But from the GFI box - breakers it shows only 3 # 12 wires ()(red, blue and white) from the 20 amp breaker to the spa, and two #10 wires from the 30 amp breaker to the spa.  Also looks like a #10 green going to te control box (at the spa ?).  Much smaller wires than I would have thought, though given the approx 45 feet of run to the spa would likely need to use larger wires - to make sure no voltage lost.  Any problem with using larger wires from GFI to spa ? Issues ?  It may be I could keep my # 8 wires now in the conduit (black and red and white and green) and add two more # 8 wires given that they split into two breakers. . . If  I go with the Optima I could just pull the #8 wires out and pull new # 6 wires.  

Also, the chart advises the GFI sub panel to be not more than 100 feet from main panel (not a problem as mine would be within one foot), and that the spa not be farther than 100 feet from the GFI panel.  So wiring lookd all very possible for either model.  So, I wonder if there are there advangages to this two breaker system used by HS ?

[knowsabit]

what about the Dimension One did you not like that eliminated it from your decision?  The Ozone system is VERY good on the d-1s.  I have owned a vanguard and while it was a good tub it cannot compare performance wise to the chairman II that I now own.  my .02 FWIW.

[newtotubbing]

One advantage I see is that the wiring from the GFI box to the spa is smaller and probably cheaper.  Other than than I do not see a difference.  HS just does is a little different.

Jonathan

[zacman]

I really loved the dimension one - tho did not wet test it - and thought it would be one to consider - the model I was interested in was the Lotus Bay.  However, the initial quote re cost - which I was told was the dealer's discounted price off of mfgr recommended price - was, I believe, about $10,500 or so. Just looking at that model made me want it though.  If the cost for that model would come in close to the Vanguard and Optima I would definitely consider it. A beautiful piece of work.

[UnderTheStars]

Hi Zacman!  Please call in a qualified electrician!  Several of your questions point to potential problems & code violations.   The NEC is just too complex to cover all the issues here.  The code is there to protect you. . .make hot water not toast!

[zacman]

Good advice re electrician.  However, I have built and wired one house and one 1300 sq ft addition and one pool house, all using NEC green book and had all inspected without issue- and some of it was fairly complicated.  I will learn as much as I can re what the different spas require, but will then go to NEC book.  When I installed my furnace, I had agreement to have it inspected by a contractor - for a fee - after I was done to see if all OK. - this way, I can do the labor and save money, yet make certain it is OK.  Also, I typically overbuild - and sometimes overwire, e.g. using 12 for all household wiring even where #14 acceptable. Still, I think your advice is sound.

[Lori]

Hey Zacman,

When it came down to my final two choices and I has started to result to tossing a coin, then 2 out of 3, then 3 out of 5, I finally decided to wet test the two models back to back!!!

Sure made a difference and I could really compare the two!

When it comes down to this close of a race, I really don't think you will go wrong!

Good luck!!!

[knowsabit]

I really loved the dimension one - tho did not wet test it - and thought it would be one to consider - the model I was interested in was the Lotus Bay.  However, the initial quote re cost - which I was told was the dealer's discounted price off of mfgr recommended price - was, I believe, about $10,500 or so. Just looking at that model made me want it though.  If the cost for that model would come in close to the Vanguard and Optima I would definitely consider it. A beautiful piece of work.

Man I was just on thier website and the Lutus Bay has about 70 jets! and three jet pumps!  That's just insane.  I would suggest wet testing that beast if you can get the chance.