Your opinion on this statement...

[Chas]

Are you going to put your tub out in a scalar field?

[Spatech_tuo]

Only if you're looking to determine the temperature distribution throughout space.

[jaw]

Color me stupid, but as this relates directly to hot tubs, I think it is relatively harmless.

There are always assumptions to be made. So assuming we are talking about any of the many favorably looked at brands, most heat will be lost from an ill fitting top, assuming the top is not ill fitting, there will be little heat loss when the tub is not in use and is properly closed.

Thus the original statement - too me is accurate and harmless (unlike the current political administation - not that the alternative is any better).

[UnderTheStars]

NEWS FLASH!

At 9:53 am, DooDoo asked about buying shares in my soon to be "Thermo-pane Beer Kozie" company.  I'm happy to report the following progress:  Initial offering structured and have applied for listing on the New York exchange.  Ticker symbol took some thought (wanted it to suggest "Beer" and "Kozie") and we applied for "BKZ"  The rep from Securities Exchange Commission asked, "Why BKZ?" and I said, "BeKauZe."

We are still in the product R&D phase (thank you Chas for your photographic submission, we'll let you know.)   Still looking for a manufacturing facility.  Confident I can convince Steve to handle distribution and will look to DrSpa for web outlet.  DooDoo, please forward $1000 (paypal or unmarked bills) so I can reserve the first block of shares in your name.  Thank you all for your support and we'll keep you posted.

                                THERMOPAIN, THE OTHER CAN KOZIE

[huh?]

Chas,


"No comparison. Houses are not filled with water, and the whole house is the living space, the walls are all we have to keep in the heat."

I'm not comparing living spaces but insulation.  Besides the walls (insulation) of the cabinet, what else holds in the heat of the tub.

"My house has no insulation in the walls, and very little in the attic becuase I live in paradise."

What do you want, a cookie?  Mine has insulation and a few 14ers nearby,  also paradise.

"The house I'm building up in the mountains will have insulated floors."

At least your feet will be warm.  You will, of course be insulating the walls and attic too, right?

"...and yes, HOT AIR will rise above cold air. But that is not synonymous with heat rising"

Hot air will rise...not synonymous with heat rising. (insert my handle here)

"The reason a hot air balloon rises is because HOT AIR is less dense than cold air"

Finally something I agree on.

"Going beyond that will not get you a spa that will keep the heat in better"

I agree again

"Insulating the bottom of a spa is important"

and again

"if you don't believe that try to keep an in-ground tub warm for a week with the pumps/heat off and the lid on."

Bad comparison.  Where I live our "freeze line" is 28".  Because of that, we build foundation walls graeter than 28" deep, typically 4'(for acces reasons and without a basement).  At 4' deep (no mater location, ie. paradise, boston, LA, alaska) the temperature of the soil will not vary much from 54 degrees.  Where I live we do insulate concrete walls, but not floors.  I believe that an in-ground hot tub with insulated walls (and cover) protruding into the 4' point would not require an insulated bottom.  However, with a spa sitting on a slab above ground or any deepth less than say 4', I would recommend an insulated bottom.

[Vinny]

I came up with a great idea - a full foam thermo-pane tub.

This is for use with U.T.S. thermo-pane beer kozie.

This is how it works: You build a structure and you get the shell with the plumbing and put R-40 insulation around the whole shell parameter. Next build a 2x4 frame and add 14 inches of dead air space. this is where any and all motors will go. Finally, you enclose all of the above in plywood and you add another R- 40 to that parameter. Of course you have the choice of skirting materials.

OK it does sit about 6 1/2 feet tall and the cabinet is 6 feet bigger than the shell but NOBODY will beat the insulation value.  Now for the cover ... anyone have a hoist!

[stuart]

Here's another idea for building that spa.

Full foam the cabinet from outer wall to shell, wrap the entire spa just inside the cabinet and on the bottom with a LOW E wrap for the "closed cell" effect, make it so that the when the motors are running you have tubes that pull that heat out on a venturi back into the water to not lose it.

Great idea! Wait, that’s already being done! It's called a Marquis!

[Vinny]

Stuart,

That idea won't work because I know that the foam has to put on from the shell to the cabinet NOT the cabinet to the shell as you stated!  

And besides I'm still waiting for all you professionals to come up with who's the top 10 TP manufacturers and top 10 FF manufactures and which manufactures in either category is better than the other manufacturers in the other category and if we can mix and match different tubs with different covers to achieve the desired result.       Whatever that may be.

I think this is where Steve was going when he started this thread!  

[stuart]

Vinny,
The process can and does work! I put the steps in the wrong order so I will elaborate; They tack the "Low E" wrap around the inside of the cabinet and then foam the entire cavity, finally they save the excess from the bottom of the spa and put another sheet of "Low E" on the bottom before sealing it off with a DuraBase.

As far as the to ten in each category I don't think I could give you ten top spas with TP and would have a difficult time justifying 10 in the FF either (although I could come up with more FF than TP).

[Vinny]

Stuart,

I was only goofing in the whole last post. I know Marquis uses some kind of wrap in their insulation system, where they put it I didn't know. It was my stupid attempt at trying to be funny.

Actually I think Coleman and I know Emerald uses aluminized "bubblewrap"  as some of their insulation. Emeralds is an optional insulation package. The aluminum reflects the radiant heat back as does the low-e coating (I once saw low-e paint for attics and walls being advertized - I thought it was an interesting idea). Only thing it's the last process, not the first.

You guys do a great job in helping us non professionals out, but I do chuckle about the FF vs TP debate and the 'what's the best'.  At times it seems to get so heated. Hopefully you all sell  products that you believe in, so "the best" should be your product or products.

My personal belief is that all quality tubs will operate efficiently and effectivly but feels differently to different people.

Vinny

[stuart]

Vinny,
Sorry for not catching it as a joke, I just finished another fair and it has been a very hard show season. I feel like I have been in a yearlong debate and have a problem stepping out of that mode.

Funny story for you though to let you know how punchy I am;

After 3 weeks of selling 16 to 18 hours a day I was working with a couple on a spa, they were quite challenging and would ignore half of what I said or cut me off, I had just gone through all of the colors available when she asked "Can't you get this in a Purple color?" I looked at her for a long moment and stated "Yes, it does come in purple, in fact the whole warehouse is full of purple spas but I really didn't want to sell you one so I kept that little secret from you!!"

After a bit of groveling on my part they bought a blue spa from me.....

[Vinny]

Maybe you can look into that low e paint ... it may come in purple!

[Shut_Down_Stranger]

lol at the responses,

even, engineers are allowed to relax and drink their beers in the hot tub while pondering the elegance of the combination of pumps, water, chemistry, plastics and heat loss.

[Tman122]

Steve, I think you need to read back in my post's before I bought my tub. Not on this board though the other one, pooh and spit. I asked and asked and made plenty of assumptions regarding what style of insulation to choose because of my theorys and convictions regarding how much foam and how to utilize waste heat and how I wanted a combination of the 2 types of insulation and some minor modifications to achieve what I feel is a better insulation method than both FF or TP.  Now your talking about it...LOL I have a sweet spot I call it where most of the waste heat is generated and transfered into the water. I also have a thermostaticly controlled cooling fan and gravity dampers allowing venting in the summer yet seal tight in the winter. I have 4-8 inches of foam on the entire shell (except the equipment area) supporting the plumbing. Reflective R-12 surrounding the entire cabinet with sealed seams (including the access door), Ducting to force air over the motor when cooling is required, or air is called for in air blower operating. And it works very very well. The foam acts to preserve heat during non fitration times and the R12 reflective acts to force feed the vessel heat during filtration. Even during below freexing temps (down to about 10-20 degrees F) I still can see some temp creep. Below 10-20 F heater use is still required but reduced, unless I up filtration times but that to me don't seem that smart (premature motor failure) at the cost of saving a less expensive heater element.  Just so you know Steve I agree with your orininal statement a few cents per day difference on just about all brands as long as the covers are equal. I ride my bike to work one day a week to pay my tub electricity bill any way, so my tub cost's 0 dollars to operate per month!!

[Chas]

Chas,


"No comparison. Houses are not filled with water, and the whole house is the living space, the walls are all we have to keep in the heat."

I'm not comparing living spaces but insulation.  Besides the walls (insulation) of the cabinet, what else holds in the heat of the tub.

The lid. But my point is that a house is a house, and a spa is a spa. There are very few similarites, or direct comparisons.

"My house has no insulation in the walls, and very little in the attic becuase I live in paradise."

What do you want, a cookie?  Mine has insulation and a few 14ers nearby,  also paradise.

Sure - I'll take a cookie. Home-made, chocolate-chunk, Tollhouse recipe would be fine. I have milk. What are (is) 14ers ??

"The house I'm building up in the mountains will have insulated floors."

At least your feet will be warm.  You will, of course be insulating the walls and attic too, right?

Yes - we are building the walls with 2x6 to allow 5" of insulation in the walls, and we will insulate the attic heavily. My point was that since heat does in fact go in any direction from hot toward cold, the insulation in the floor is valuable in keeping the house cool in summer and warm in winter.

"...and yes, HOT AIR will rise above cold air. But that is not synonymous with heat rising"

Hot air will rise...not synonymous with heat rising. (insert my handle here)

The point here - and I admit I may not have made it perfectly clear - is that hot air rises, but HEAT will go in any direction. This cannot be stressed enough: heat is heat and air is air. Becuase hot air rises, people think that heat only goes up. That is simply not true. Heat can and does go in any direction, but always goes from hot toward cold.  Sitting in front of a fire should tell you that: the warmth you feel is not connected with hot air rising: it is radiant heat, and it radiates in all directions. The fumes from the fire go up the flue because it is hot air.

"The reason a hot air balloon rises is because HOT AIR is less dense than cold air"

Finally something I agree on.

Well, the other things I have mentioned are physical laws. If we disagree on those, one of us is wrong. I think its a matter of me not making my point clear. Which is also related to hot air...

Bad comparison.  Where I live our "freeze line" is 28".  Because of that, we build foundation walls graeter than 28" deep, typically 4'(for acces reasons and without a basement).  At 4' deep (no mater location, ie. paradise, boston, LA, alaska) the temperature of the soil will not vary much from 54 degrees.  Where I live we do insulate concrete walls, but not floors.  I believe that an in-ground hot tub with insulated walls (and cover) protruding into the 4' point would not require an insulated bottom.  However, with a spa sitting on a slab above ground or any deepth less than say 4', I would recommend an insulated bottom.

Most in-ground tubs are not insulated at all. Some are, but the insulation gets soaked early on, and is of no use from that point. So - you have hot water sitting in almost direct contact with the planet. And since we now all agree that heat will go in any direction (from hot to cold) we see that the heat will transfer from the hot water into the soil from all the walls and bottom.  Also, most in-ground tubs don't have insulated plumbing, so when the pumps are on those pipes are giving up heat from the water. The thing that clouds this issue here is that most in-ground tubs have huge gas-fired heaters, which can re-heat the water in minutes. So it doesn't matter if the tub drops 10 degrees overnight - it can be hot again in the time it takes to turn the heater on, go lift the lid and get in. Give or take ten minutes if the heater is a bit smaller.

But a self-contained spa is designed to keep the heat in and keep the water at a stable temp, so it needs to be well insulated on all sides. And in my opinion, it should have an insulation scheme that allows it to keep its heat in if the pumps are running or not. So my favorite system doesn't count on the cast off heat from the pumps - rather it recycles that heat only when the jets are on.