Hot Spring Sold by Pioneer Pools Toronto Area Help.

[d00nut]

Just saying... this was posted by Chris Wheatley 19 days ago on his "Buyers Assistance" side... This should immediately discredit everything this guy says.  He must be smoking something if he thinks Cal is a better spa than Sundance:

I would say the Cal spa over Sundance for sure but make sure you order the full foam package if you are in a cold climate, don’t buy the bulls*^#(* about these reflective foils this s&#^$t was pretty much banned in the northern US states in the 80’s and now its the miracle insulator in the totally unregulated hot tub industry…

Also, double check the control and heating system is Balboa, I was at their factory in January and they were using waterways on their entry level stuff and Balboa only on their higher ends…

Sundance was bought by a big equity investment corp that also owns jacuzzi, Hydropool, D1, and endless pool. Typically this kind of organization specializes in the spin, brand awareness, marketing etc and uses lots of proprietary parts and frankly build overpriced mid-grade products with amazingly good packaging 🙂

Sundance hasn't changed ownership since 2002.  They recently bought Hydropool, but never Endless Pool.  Endless was bought by Watkins Wellness.

You'll notice that all of his claims are OPINIONS.  They are never based off fact.  He is really convincing in his videos though.  He is absolutely an idiot if he thinks that Cal makes a quality spa and Sundance does not.  Yikes

[swilly1000]

I’m not going through 4-5 years of posts. Two of my customers have showed me the post in his hot tub buyers guide comment section. Another thing he says is to avoid E-series because of parts lists but endorsed the signature series. Newsflash to him the equipment other then the topside is exactly the same. I could care less that you bought a Master Spa, could careless that you think this guy is a god of hot tubs but all he is a Master Spa saleman who sells hot tubs out of his garage. He is a great marketer for Master Spas that’s for sure.

You say that he is inaccurate with the facts but when asked to back it up you can't, or won't.  It took me less than 10 minutes to find a direct quote contradicting what you say about him.  And then what?  You get dismissive ("I’m not going through 4-5 years of posts") and continue to trash talk him ("... all he is a Master Spa salesman who sells hot tubs out of his garage").

As a newbie to this industry, I was drawn to his site because he fills a void in the market.  That void IMO is a direct result of the shady practices that I mentioned in other posts.  People trust him because they feel the rest of the market can't be trusted.  And there a lot of people who agree with me on that.  Just look at the posts in the buyers assistance page of his site.  The page is crammed with people thanking him for what he does.  If he is pulling the wool over our eyes, than he has the industry to thank for creating the void that he is filling.

I agree with you that he is a great marketer for Master, but I sure as heck don't think he is the God of hot tubs (show me where I said that lol).  As I've said over and over in my short time here, my interest is in really understanding the hate-on for Master, and by extension, HTU.  They are detested for reasons that the end user doesn't care about.  Nothing I've read has changed my thinking. 

I understand that you could care less that I bought a Master. I was under no illusions that he is biased and I did my own research beyond HTU in arriving at my decision.  In a perfect world I would have wet-tested every major brand, but I simply didn't have the time to do that, just like you apparently don't have the time to back up your claims about what he says. 

What I want most out of my tub is the hydrotherapy benefits.  I think I picked a high performance tub that meets my needs.  Time will tell.

[swilly1000]

One of my big pet peeves is when people in the same industry trash their competitors.  Trashing the competition redirects the focus from why someone is good at what they do to why the other guy sucks.  It's low class and cheap.

One industry where it's really bad is residential contracting.  I had my kitchen gutted and renovated about four years ago and it cost me $65K.  I think most people will agree that it's not hard to spend $65K on a kitchen, but so much of the time when I talked to contractors the knee jerk reaction was to tell me how badly I got ripped off.  It got to the point where I just stopped telling people about it.

Just sayin.

[castletonia]

One of my big pet peeves is when people in the same industry trash their competitors.  Trashing the competition redirects the focus from why someone is good at what they do to why the other guy sucks.  It's low class and cheap.

One industry where it's really bad is residential contracting.  I had my kitchen gutted and renovated about four years ago and it cost me $65K.  I think most people will agree that it's not hard to spend $65K on a kitchen, but so much of the time when I talked to contractors the knee jerk reaction was to tell me how badly I got ripped off.  It got to the point where I just stopped telling people about it.

Just sayin.

Respect is earned, not given.  In my opinion, Master Spas hasn’t done anything to gain or earn anyone’s respect within the industry.

If you did your research and arrived at the conclusion that a Master Spa was best for your needs, that’s fine and respectable and I really hope you have years of trouble free enjoyment.  It just seems to me that you are continually trying to defend your decision, which you don’t have to.

Most everyone here has one objective and only one objective: to help those that need help.  We have no direct benefit by providing information and educated opinions.

And for the record, there are worse products (Cal Spas) than a Master Spa and they don’t get near the negativity. 

When I am researching products I want to buy, I know to take every opinion with a grain of salt.  I value the opinion most by those who own the product and provide valuable feedback.  So, go enjoy your hot tub and report back in 6-12 months and let us know about your ownership experience, whether good or bad.

[swilly1000]

I'm not trying to defend my decision. I'm trying to understand a dynamic.

Agreed though on the 6-12 month bit.

[Chris_H]

These fights are almost as good as the old Spa Specialist ones.  What ever happened to the Super Custom Fallsapart?

[Roeboat]

Swilly, like your kitchen you need to give it up.

Here is how it works. I wanted to buy a hot tub. I went to all of the local dealers and got the brochures/pricing. I went to the internet and I agree with you, it is hard to find any unbiased reviews and pricing. I watched all of Hot Tub U videos witch were helpful.
I owned a Master Spa for 8 years and it was great. (replaced heater and Ozoneator) Sold it with house.

My price range was around $6k-$10k. One of my local dealer has a nice used Jacuzzi for $4k, but 1 year warranty. In my price range I knew I wanted the best spa, after wet testing. with a 5 year warranty.

Then, I found this forum and found it to be useful. With the help of Casletona (500 posts), Hottubguy (1653 posts), Hottubdan (2296 posts) and Sam (1014 posts), I drilled down on what would be the best deal. I was down to 3 spas. Hot Springs Flair, South Seas 748 and Caldera Makena.

I now have a Caldera Makena on my back patio and we are loving it and many thanks to the industry professionals who gave me advice on this forum. My electrician worked for Watkins for 20 years and said "great price on the Makena, it will last you 20 years".

So, in summary, some people buy Lexus or Toyota or Kia, but it is up to the hot tub buyer to buy the one that fits your needs at the correct price.

[bachman]

Swilly, like your kitchen you need to give it up.

Here is how it works. I wanted to buy a hot tub. I went to all of the local dealers and got the brochures/pricing. I went to the internet and I agree with you, it is hard to find any unbiased reviews and pricing. I watched all of Hot Tub U videos witch were helpful.
I owned a Master Spa for 8 years and it was great. (replaced heater and Ozoneator) Sold it with house.

My price range was around $6k-$10k. One of my local dealer has a nice used Jacuzzi for $4k, but 1 year warranty. In my price range I knew I wanted the best spa, after wet testing. with a 5 year warranty.

Then, I found this forum and found it to be useful. With the help of Casletona (500 posts), Hottubguy (1653 posts), Hottubdan (2296 posts) and Sam (1014 posts), I drilled down on what would be the best deal. I was down to 3 spas. Hot Springs Flair, South Seas 748 and Caldera Makena.

I now have a Caldera Makena on my back patio and we are loving it and many thanks to the industry professionals who gave me advice on this forum. My electrician worked for Watkins for 20 years and said "great price on the Makena, it will last you 20 years".

So, in summary, some people buy Lexus or Toyota or Kia, but it is up to the hot tub buyer to buy the one that fits your needs at the correct price.

^  I'll re-post because this makes a lot of sense to me.
Roe Had a Master spa that was great and used worthwhile resources and members here to search for the next tub fitting personal criteria since it's never "One size fits all" in most things for any of us.

The Shopping Expert-
I've always felt having sales experience helped/s me in most shopping or research or buying experiences but truth is, being a consumer who has bought many things over the last nearly half century is more likely the real wisdom. We are are all that person- One who works for our money, food, housing / staples and toys or luxury items and we have an awful lot of shopping and buying experiences that make us better at what we do ... sometimes realizing research and slowing it down a bit before making a decision is best.

Sales people (some)-
Not only is the salesperson who knows-it-all, talks down to people or ridicules other brands a big turn-off, it surprises me to no end these folks can actually stay in the business or have any success at all. In some cases, the smart thing to do is go shop and research those other brands he/she trashed. They must be a significant force in competition to get that form of free advertising and who wouldn't be offended by the salesperson mocking their potential customer by making them feel an idiot for considering "that crappy brand, pile of junk"  or whatever their colorful description. This is the time to run out the door if not thank that knucklehead for being soooo transparent. 

Tone it down some (maybe?)-
The more I read here, the more I feel HTU and his seemingly one-sided love affair hurts Master more than it helps. His vids and articles obviously cause a lot of focus on looking for things he gets wrong, misstates or testifies as fact when it's more of an opinion.
Yes, he did mention a few other brands by name and he'd do well (IMO) to turn it down a notch and bring a few brands into the spotlight with a little more on their common traits and why they are the premier brands to consider. He might stand a chance of sounding less shill and bring more credibility to the to the table. I believe on some level, his heart is in the business and he believes a lot of what he says but he's got himself into a corner as all or nothing on one brand.
I'd appreciate his efforts more if he made a list every year or two showing the top picks (and why) for three to 5 pricing categories. Maybe 3 or 4 choices in the given price ranges.  I'm a firm believer that no One company rules across the board in every model or price range as the A Number One Pick.
Skis, bikes, hot tubs, lap tops or cars,,, pick a budget range and solid research will lead you to a number of brand names and models to pick from. I've shopped and researched things I'll never buy just to test theories, practice shopping or see how ratings stack up and what sources seem candid and trustworthy.

[Tman122]

I wish I had time to type as much as some of you.

In my opinion Master Spas is mediocre at best. Want facts? I've been doing this for over 30 years. That's the only fact you get. I've seen thousands of tubs and a ton of them Master. Take it or leave it, I don't care.

[swilly1000]

Thanks for that declaration Tman. 

I guess that settles it. 

[Spatech_tuo]

I wish I had time to type as much as some of you.

In my opinion Master Spas is mediocre at best. Want facts? I've been doing this for over 30 years. That's the only fact you get. I've seen thousands of tubs and a ton of them Master. Take it or leave it, I don't care.

Well said (I typed even less).

[Sam]

Microsilk is not proprietary.  It's made by a multi-billion dollar company (jason) and available in multiple hot tub brands.  There's another thing that he's gotten wrong.  He gets a lot of things wrong.  I've read most of his site and watched most of his videos.  I don't recall the details of what he got wrong but I remember there were quite a few either misleading statements or out and out b.s. statements.

Also, all of the industry people here regularly speak well of brands they don't represent or work with.  Most people here do a great job of admitting bias and trying to keep it out of their statements.  Most industry people here also tend to agree on what's good and what isn't, and everything in between.  There's a lot of consensus on most topics.  That guy is a shill who sounds super knowledgeable if you aren't experienced in the industry.  I totally get why people like his site and believe his claims.  He's just not nearly as knowledgeable or unbiased as he claims.  Simple fact.  Don't believe it if you want, but I promise you it's true.  I have far more exposure to other brands than this guy.  He's been with master most of his career. 

I don't mind being a homer for a product you sell.  I'd be reluctant to purchase from you if you weren't.  I do though have a problem with claiming to be unbiased when clearly the opposite is true.  I also have a problem with stating things as fact and with the utmost authority when a lot of it is spin and some of it is total b.s.

[swilly1000]

Microsilk is not proprietary.  It's made by a multi-billion dollar company (jason) and available in multiple hot tub brands.  There's another thing that he's gotten wrong.  He gets a lot of things wrong.  I've read most of his site and watched most of his videos.  I don't recall the details of what he got wrong but I remember there were quite a few either misleading statements or out and out b.s. statements.

That's not the problem.  Even as a newbie, I know what Microsilk is and that Jason owns it.  He's been in the industry for decades.  It's ludicrous to say that he would get that wrong, notwithstanding what you think about him.

The problem was that it was claimed that he thought Microsilk is an enzyme product, like Spa Marvel, which was not true.  He most assuredly knows what Microsilk is, has no confusion about it whatsoever, but he was portrayed as being out of touch on that, which he wasn't.  When I brought it to the person's attention that he had it wrong, there was no acknowledgement of the error(!?), only lashing out, and it became a s**t storm.

It's clear that a lot of people here don't like him, think he's a shill, biased, lacks knowledge, even a liar.  Have at it on him all you want, I don't care.  But when people casually toss around untruths about him, they become exactly what they are accusing him of being!!!  Glass houses people.

[Hottubguy]

He 100% claimed that. If you look through his threads you will notice he only keeps comments active for 6 months. There is no comments in his buyers guide older then 6 months. I haven’t been on his site in a bit until last night trying to find the thread. I also see he longer like Marquis Spas. I can’t find his video anywhere on his site explaining his reasoning though.

[swilly1000]

Today he posted:

"I’m not recommending the marquis anymore I bought one and have to say the quality of build was just not there, it had a leak, a fault and just poor attention to detail and it was a brand now 2018 from the factory! they review is coming out soon." 

Five days ago he posted:

"I’m taking these guys off the good guy list, I have a brand new vector 21 here and the build quality was just not great at all, sloppy workmanship, the tub had a leak and 2 faults and the attention to detail was pants…

Ill email you a link but don’t share it it’s not ready for the public yet."

I guess there is a video review coming out.