GFI Tripping

[bud16415]

Do you still have the first motor that was replaced? It would be interesting to put a megger on it out of the tub and see if it showed a problem or even power it up on the bench and see if it has any problems.

If it tested good and runs you could assume its not the motor and work back from there in the wiring and such.   

[gmdodt]

I do not - I as out of town with work when the tech came and replaced it.  What the tech said is that they have to send the pump back to watkins for them to check it out and if there really is a problem with it, then they get reimbursed for it.  This is the reason he wouldnt replace any other parts on the tub until he could nail down the culprit.  Luckily, for that initial pump, it was leaking (barely) and he could see the white water stain on the wood of the cabinet

[bachman]

That is the function of your GFCI breaker. That little bit of corrosion you saw was a short but the reason that didn’t turn into a meltdown and possible life threatening problem is the GFCI shuts the power off the instant it detects a short to ground. If this was wired straight to the breaker in the main panel without the GFCI in line it would have eventually tripped the 50a breaker in the panel when the heater had totally melted down in flames and sent 220v thru the tub water and the combination of paths for the electric to take had totaled more than 50a. This would have taken some time could have caused a fire in the tub or electrocuted people sitting in the water.

Yeah, pretty happy I didn't experience any shut down or tripping issues nor can I speak first hand of the previous situation.
Just speculation the on the old heater. I think there is a chance it would have been intermittent as well although that can be dictated in some cases by frequency of use, where and when water gets into things, how long it takes and the same to dry out etc...

Safety is the key though and the test button reminder is good for all.

[gmdodt]

Newest update is it tripped this AM. THIS TIME it still tripped when the pump tried to kick on but it was a filter session, which now kind of confirms that I dont think it has anything to do with the heat.

Seems like board or pump to me..

[bachman]

Mine samples temp in that cycle I think but probably a delayed response from the pump coming on if the heat is needed.
I do think most filter cycle's are the lower pump speed and a very low amp draw. Maybe this will help further isolate though.

[gmdodt]

Yes, it is the low speed of the primary pump that is trying to come on.  It may do some testing of the temp, but that wouldn't involved the heater, at least not immediately.  The fact that is happening right when the pump tried to turn on either to do a filter or heating session makes me think its not a heater or related sensor (flow or temperature sensor).  Just cant figure out what else it could be.  New pump which has a newer capacitor.  Wires seem okay (i dont think they were replaced with the pump, i think he just replaced the pump and they are wrapped together except at the ends)

[bud16415]

Sure sounds like one of those places. For it to trip the GFCI it has to be leaking the threshold current level to ground someplace. I think it is 5ma. A wire barely grounding to something metal or the ground wire seeing a crack in the hot wire insulation etc. Same with the motor, a winding going to ground once in a while. Intermittent minor grounds like this are often moisture related.

Once again the megger is the tool to find this. 

[gmdodt]

Okay I'm gonna ask neighbor if I cam borrow it. Can you detail, as specifically as possible, what testing I should do and how to do it. I really need a step by step here..

[gmdodt]

bump. Not sure what all to do with this megger :x

[bud16415]

Sorry for not getting back sooner.

You have found the problem to be in the one pump motor circuit and can now eliminate everything else we hope. So what do you have there a motor. Some wires running to it and some device telling it to turn on and then conducting the current to the motor. The megger can help you out with the motor and wires for sure if one or the other is intermittently going to ground very slightly. The tub needs to be shut down 100% and the things being tested need to be disconnected 100% so that’s removing the wires from the motor and removing the other end of the wires from whatever controls them. it is important the free ends are also not touching anything or each other. You need to also make sure you are not touching anything being charged during the test. This kind of wire is good for 600v+ so I would do the testing at 500v.

If you can rule out the motor and the wires then you are left with the control device. If there is a relay or motor starter that could also be tested if you can isolate it from the computer outputting the low voltage signal to the device. I would start with the simple part motor first then wiring.

There are dozens of video tutorials on line here is one. I found quickly. I would suggest watching a few as everyone relates differently to instruction videos. Be careful and the idea is to keep eliminating things one by one.   

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TdeU6UCCfTY

[gmdodt]

Thanks bud. Ironically I had watched both videos that guy produced on the topic. I just wish someone did it on actual hot tub parts so that I could clearly compare what's I need to do. For example, the hot tub pump has a ground going to the main board and a ground going to the grounding bar on the heater. I assume I'd disconnect both as well as the two power leads. If that's done then the question is do you clamp one end on one of the power leads and the other on one of the grounds..if so which one. These are the types things I just dont know and why I need some hand holding

[bud16415]

All the grounds are common as is the motor housing. I would disconnect it all and megger from power leads to the case. 500v and resistance should be 1M ohms or more. If you get a lower resistance that allows as little as 5ma to pass it will trip the GFCI. 5ma is not much current at all. 

The idea is the increased voltage should cause an insulation fault reading where 240v 120v to ground won’t fault unless say it is damp or something. Intermittent problem. 

[gmdodt]

So in an interesting turn of events:

I contacted Watkins via phone. This gentleman was supposed to talk to a tech and get back to me. Never did. So 15 days later I called again and spoke a nice women. She did speak to her tech and even patched me to him. We discussed all the trouble shooting I have done (primary pump replaces, isolated pump 2, replaced breaker and wires, and confirmed it wasn't heater as it happens during filter session) and he agrees that it could be the main board. They are sending me a new board, preprogrammed with the newest software for free even though it's about a year out of warranty. Hopefully it fixes it but if not, he said to call back. I guess they are in the holiday spirit I'll keep posted, though itll take a few months to confirm it's working right

[bud16415]

So in an interesting turn of events:

I contacted Watkins via phone. This gentleman was supposed to talk to a tech and get back to me. Never did. So 15 days later I called again and spoke a nice women. She did speak to her tech and even pat her me to him. We discussed all the trouble shooting I have done (primary pump replaces, isolated pump 2, replaced breaker and wires, and confirmed it wasn't heater as it happens during filter session) and he agrees that it could be the main board. They are sending me a new board, preprogrammed with the newest software for free even though it's about a year out of warranty. Hopefully it fixes it but if not, he said to call back. I guess they are in the holiday spirit I'll keep posted, though itll take a few months to confirm it's working right

That's great to hear. For you and for me down the road if i ever need some help from them. Keep us posted.

[gmdodt]

I'm just praying it fixes the problem.  Not sure what else it could be. The heater, maybe, but it has happened on a filter session before, though it was only once. Most of the time it trips before a heating session but there's also a lot more heating sessions then filter sessions, so could just be coincidence