Buyer needs advice second phase

[Hottubguy]

Master seems has four layer foam insulation the big therapy jets especially the 2 foot blasters,a 2.5# 5 to 3" tapered cover, that no other spas at the 8000 price pointf offer.really like marquis celebrity elite but no bench model and mostly small jets and no real foot jets same with artesian.would have to step up to island elite line or marquis signature line to get foot blasters and we'll over 10000 for both. Other tubs such as hot springs,sundance/jaccuzzi, all over priced with proprietary parts. Same with marquis vector

There covers that come standard are 6/4 1lb foam. They insulate the same way as Marquis. It’s not 4 layers. It’s 1/2 lb icynene. Works good but not 4 layers. $8,000 for a twilight?  You are confusing overpriced with a reputation for building quality tubs that are built to last. I’m sure where you are getting your information from. Just remember that Mr Wheatley is a Master dealer so his site feeds you information he wants you to hear.

[castletonia]

Yes I have wet tested jaccuzzi,marquis,bullfrog,Caldera,artesian and hot springs.did not see or feel any jetting that was impressive enough to justify prices.bullfrog was good but no feet jets and to replacing spa packs is expensive. Marquis and artesian were also good but not 10 to 12k good.haven't found anything inferior about a master spa compared to the others mentioned. I have read negative posts and reviews of master spas but also have read negative views and posts about every brand I have mentioned. I beleive if spa is well built with good parts that can be easily accessed from anywhere vs a spa that can only use their parts and are not as well built then to purchase would be asanine. Why do these companies build spas with proprietary parts in the first place? It isn't for the consumers benefit and that right there tells me their bottom line is their main concern not quality or customer servic. I have  read many posts and reviews from many dealers who seem to genuinely care about their product and customer service and can't understand why some others would carry a product with inferior build,jetting,insulation and parts except to screw consumer for money. And maybe posting negative reviews and comments about companies that put money into spa and don't use proprietary parts which ultimately screws consumer.

Proprietary parts are used for a reason.  When the manufacturer controls the parts that go into their spa, then they control the quality.  And if we want to complain about proprietary, try finding Master Spas filters.  Those EcoPur filters can only be sold by an authorized Master Spas retailer or service station. 

We can agree to disagree then regarding therapy.  Having sat in over 80 hot tubs in my life, I can personally tell the difference from what I consider a premium brand compared to a non-premium.  A Marquis Signature series, Caldera Utopia, Hot Spring Highlife all to me feel much better than any Dynasty, Cal Spa, or Maax I ever sat in.  I have never been in a Twilight, but was underwhelmed in the two Legend Series Masters I had been in.  To each their own.

You seem very set in your opinion and while I really disagree with most of your points, I hope you have good luck with your Master Spa and that your expectations are met.

[d00nut]

Why do these companies build spas with proprietary parts in the first place?

It's for better business.  Innovation.  Capitalism.  Why doesn't Ford share all their patents and tech with Chevy?  Why doesn't Apple share all theirs with Samsung? 

This is a bad argument against people who innovate.  If you take away reasons to innovate, then you get stagnation... which results nothing good.  We'd still have suitcases for cell phones and cars with crash test guaranteed to kill you.

It's not like parts aren't readily available either.  Just because I sell Hot Spring or Bullfrog... you don't necessarily need to buy the part through me.  You could find only about a billion different retailers for whatever part you need.

Great example:  A Balboa control board can can cost anywhere for $200 to $650.  A Hot Spring can cost anywhere from $250 to $500.  What is the difference?  Reliability?  The same I'd argue.

Don't think the parts are inaccessible.  They are anything but that.

Master Spas is a pretty good hot tub (IMHO) but the company sucks.  There are a lot of other hot tub companies I would choose to represent rather than those guys.  But if you like little support and high pressure sales... go for it!   

[Cuddlebug]

I have visited Mr wheatleys site and found it very interesting I also have visited others as well but do not put too much faith in them because of companies that post their own comments, same as trying to sell something on craigslist and get flooded by people wanting to sell it for you. I have had a connection to the pool and spa industry in one way or the other for 30 years. I have done my own research ie wentry to every local dealers in area and wet tested the ones I like. I also experienced every shady tactic that one expects from a used car salesman. HeaRd every argument about quality,craftsmanship,history,innovation and whatever else these salesman could regurgitate from the seminars from the manufacturer they could remember. Which surprisingly is not much.I also saw some real pretty tubs with all the bells and whistles that one could wantfor whatever dealer wanted to charge. Seems to me in my humble opinion that it comes down to build,components,insulation,quality and warranty. I thought that artesian,marquis bullfrog and coast at the top. I try to buy local and have read all the horror stories of master and dealer,even watched the video and it's scary stuff.it still doesn't seem to be a bad tub. That said your right it's my choice and I hope I choosee well. I do want to thank everyone for input,advice,suggestion and genuine concern for someone to get the best and not get hosed! Over an d Out

[d00nut]

I have visited Mr wheatleys site and found it very interesting

Make no mistake.  He is a great marketer for Master Spas. 

[Spatech_tuo]

I have visited Mr wheatleys site and found it very interesting

Make no mistake.  He is a great marketer for Master Spas.

Its the "never let the truth get in the way of a good Marketing plan" approach!

[Sam]

I have visited Mr wheatleys site and found it very interesting

Make no mistake.  He is a great marketer for Master Spas.

Yep, he's well spoken and a very good salesman.  Some of the stuff he says is good information, but quite a bit is total b.s.  He's also a retailer that sells one brand only and is a complete and total shill for that brand.  He doesn't like to talk about that part much though.  Unfortunately, I'm seeing more and more people who have bought his pitch as of late.  And that's what it is, just another sales pitch.

And by the way, master does not have a 2.5# foam density cover. 

[silversun]

Some of the stuff he says is good information, but quite a bit is total b.s

What is total BS?

[d00nut]

I watched a video recently of his on control boards.

He thinks highly of himself, enough to give ratings and people to take his word for it.

A couple of his opinions that are complete BS:

"Anyone who makes a proprietary part is evil and designing something inferior and are only looking to screw over the customer." 
"Balboa is the best, and Gecko is #2.... but it's not good enough to say #2... they are like... way down to number 5 or 6, and Balboa takes the #1,2,3,4 slots."

Of course, there is no data supporting what he thinks above.  He says it convincingly enough.  His first statement is anti-capitalism.  He wants a monopoly I guess, which would be terrible.  Balboa is great, but I haven't seen ANY warranty differences in Gecko packs I've installed.

This is like saying... Apple is definitively better than Samsung... It's really not a fact... it's an opinion. 

Or Ford is better than Ram.  Or Twitter is better than Instagram.  Or Sherwin Williams is better than Dunn-Edwards.

Basically, take what he says with a serious grain of salt.  When you mix a bit of truth with lies... it's powerful and dangerous!

[Hottubguy]

Some of the stuff he says is good information, but quite a bit is total b.s

What is total BS?

I know what that you looked at Marquis before you bought your Sundance.  Read his thoughts on microsilk. News flash to him it’s not a chemical system. He acts like he is in the know with tons of manufacturers but he really knows Master well and that’s about it. He also accuses every brand of spinning facts to support what they are selling. It’s the exact same thing he does. Master isn’t a terrible brand by any means but not what he makes them out to be

[Sam]

I agree with the above statements.  Another one that gets me is that generally speaking he makes it sound like Hot Spring is not worth considering and Master is the best in the industry.  I've personally sold both brands over the years and currently sell neither.  If you were to offer me a Hot Spring or similarly priced or featured Master Spa, I would not even think twice about taking the Hot Spring.  Their dealer/customer support is possibly the best in the industry.  It's certainly among the best.  Master was a nightmare to work with.  H.S. went above and beyond constantly.  I can't speak highly enough of my experience with them. 

Hot Spring reliability was also considerably better.  We had a higher failure rate with Master and took a lot longer to get worse service from them.  Hot Spring has been a pioneer and innovator in this industry for 40+ years.  Master is just building a component spa with the worst cabinet available and pretty good quality components made by other people that they piece together.  Hot Spring designs a spa from the ground up with all of the components meant to work in cohesion.  The whole is greater than the sum of it's parts.  You can't do that as well when you just assemble other people's components.  Sure, some of the parts may be more expensive but it's not some nefarious plot like h.t. university claims. 

He also says you need to have a hand rolled fiberglass shell and any other way is unacceptable.  That is absolute garbage.  The lowest failure rate in our industry is probably the shell.  There are a variety of ways to build a good shell and when done right, it doesn't matter.  If you are giving more than a modicum of weight shell construction as a determining factor in your purchase, you're not doing it right.

Again, I don't have a dog in this fight because both of these brands are my competitors.  Having sold both, I can tell you that master is not in the same league as hot spring.  It's not even close.  Their jets are more therapeutic, better filtration, more energy efficient, better customer support.... I could go on and on.  And none of this even mentions their sanctioning of the shadiest sales tactics in our industry and obfuscating the nature of their relationship with the traveling circus.  Chris at hot tub university is a well spoken, knowledgeable guy who is a shill for master spas.  He provides just enough objective, quality information to be able to fool a lot of people into believing his "sales pitch".  That whole website is a well crafted sales pitch for Master Spas, the one and only brand he sells at his dealership.

[Cuddlebug]

Finally figured out having a local dealers that you like vs someone far away is soooo much better. My two final choices are the Hollywood elite,full foam,in line filter,lifter and delivery 7500 vs v84 microsilk and same 9000. Or bullfrog r6 6995 no ozone or lifter and 8499 for r7. Both costco prices withe 7 yr warranty. The one pump on r6 really seems weak if more than 2 in tub and are the other non jetpack jets any good? Wet tested but didn't notice or forgot my bad. Any input would be greatly appreciated thanks.

[Cuddlebug]

2019 on the Hollywood elite btw

[Hottubguy]

Finally figured out having a local dealers that you like vs someone far away is soooo much better. My two final choices are the Hollywood elite,full foam,in line filter,lifter and delivery 7500 vs v84 microsilk and same 9000. Or bullfrog r6 6995 no ozone or lifter and 8499 for r7. Both costco prices withe 7 yr warranty. The one pump on r6 really seems weak if more than 2 in tub and are the other non jetpack jets any good? Wet tested but didn't notice or forgot my bad. Any input would be greatly appreciated thanks.

Looking at some good tubs. I’m not privy to BF prices but I do sell Marquis. I actually prefer the Elite models unless you are really sold on Microsilk. With all those options on the Hollywood Elite I’m about $1400 more the. What you are being quoted. Vector 84 I’m he same without Microsilk which I sell for $1700. So seems like you are getting good prices. Even the R7 I think that price is pretty good

[Cuddlebug]

Thanks hot tub guy and since you sell marquis maybe you could help with questions about running both pumps at the same time I beleive salesman said some thing about not being able to and also does it have the durabase. Also do you know cover specs? And average cost with full foam generally.I also read that warranty states that trip rate is applicable if it is some distance and also rising fuel prices? WTF . Sorry about that what is standard warranty and how much is covered.only wet tested v84 and also wondering if neck jets are good and I know they only do gpm but what does that translate to horsepower for pumps. Thank you