Another Newbie, Another question. Something a bit different - water changes?

[swilly1000]

Not at all.  Master is hated by more than any of them, but that doesn't change the fact that the entire industry is a minefield.

[Hottubguy]

Links are not working Swilly....

Better?

https://photos.google.com/photo/AF1QipOy7Id-AU75OiN77KGC1MDqdyuRgGcOZDmDIOKM

https://photos.google.com/photo/AF1QipPQswQQww-2klulKcumDOblTNv3uJOvvTxfjVKm

Still don’t work but they did get away from steel frames a couple years ago. Maybe even 4-5 years ago

[Spatech_tuo]

Not at all.  Master is hated by more than any of them, but that doesn't change the fact that the entire industry is a minefield.

Master is not hated except for those who are directly affected by their unscrupulous traveling sales circus. They are disrespected overall and for good reason. Often times its not about what you should buy but more about what you're better off avoiding. People here are good about naming 3, 5, 7.. different good options and not just saying "buy my favorite brand".

The industry can be a minefield for those who don't understand it fully which is why people come here for advise. It is the opinion of many here that they'd be wise to avoid the mines like Master and Cal. There are plenty of good options out there and some decent ones as well, Master just isn't considered a good option by most.

No one is saying 100% of Master owners will be dissatisfied, they are saying a higher % will be. If the advise you see here doesn't match what you purchased that's unfortunate and we all wish you well.

[Sam]

Not at all.  Master is hated by more than any of them, but that doesn't change the fact that the entire industry is a minefield.

Master is not hated except for those who are directly affected by their unscrupulous traveling sales circus. They are disrespected overall and for good reason. Often times its not about what you should buy but more about what you're better off avoiding. People here are good about naming 3, 5, 7.. different good options and not just saying "buy my favorite brand".

The industry can be a minefield for those who don't understand it fully which is why people come here for advise. It is the opinion of many here that they'd be wise to avoid the mines like Master and Cal. There are plenty of good options out there and some decent ones as well, Master just isn't considered a good option by most.

No one is saying 100% of Master owners will be dissatisfied, they are saying a higher % will be. If the advise you see here doesn't match what you purchased that's unfortunate and we all wish you well.

Well said man.

[kies1]

When I was in the market looking for a hot tub I went into 4 different dealers, Mater, Arctic, jacuzzi and hotsprings. Master was the only one that bad mouthed every other brand. Even tried to argue with me about warranty on one brand. I could tell the difference in quality from silicone job to other things where master was the worst. When I told him to look up the warranty online to confirm what the other brand was he did not. None of the other dealers bad mouthed any other brand of hot tub. I ended up going with a hotspring flash for only about 1000 more than the master twilight spa we were looking at. In the end you have to be happy with your purchase but there is good advice on this forum if you are willing to listen to it. In the end what really turned me off of master was the attitude of the dealer bad mouthing every other brand. To me this is totally unprofessional and I would never buy from a place that does this to try to get a sale. Plus the quality of the cabinet and the silicon me on the lights also turned me off and a worse warranty.

[silversun]

I had a similar experience when shopping around last year. The master dealer was lightyears behind the others in sales practices. Their entire process seemed antiquated and shoddy.
They first tried to sell me on a tub which the buyer had flaked during one of their tent sales - which they insisted they have no control over, and the manufacturer dictates the dates and the terms to them. They claimed the buyer put down a deposit, but couldn't finance the remainder and they were willing to sell me the hot tub minus the deposit which was a great deal. It was a red flag, and my BS meter was pinging off the charts. Then the dealer tried to sell me on the 'no chemicals needed' pitch, which was really just the mineral stick/MPS method. MPS is obviously a chemical (and I think you still need some chlorine). I'm OK w/ some sales pitch, but it was the way the dealer insisted Master had figured out a special method that nobody else in the industry could replicate, a method which mitigated the need for any type of chemical at all. It was insulting to my intelligence.

I was ready to walk by that point, only 15 minutes into my visit.
The final straw was the wet test. When I asked about a wet test, the dealer asked me to put down a deposit just to wet test their twilight series tub. No thanks.

This was all before I knew anything about the quality of the tub relative to the competition or their reputation as a business.

The dealer in question was Crocker Sales in Woburn, MA.

[Michael Russell]

All the recent replies really seem to be saying one thing.. You need to trust the dealer you are going to buy from..

I have had the experience of trash talking brands sales guys at a few stores. It has been the lower end stores mostly. That said I like our local Marquis dealer. Seems decent, honest and easy going... I stopped by another Marquis dealer while I was away on training last week just to get a feel for the price I was offered. I mentioned the other brands I was intereted in and he went into a diatribe about how they do not even compare and trashing them all. When I finally managed to get a price out of him he was 3k more then my local store who I have not really negotiated with..Guy was just a shill. But two different stores selling the same thing. One I would gladly recommend even if I don't buy from them myself and another that is as crooked as they come.


To update on the process..

I did sit in the master today - Twilight 7.2.. Comparing the the Marquis I would say the jets are stronger. That said Marquis makes up for some of this with the Hot Zone Jets which were amazing. The Foot Blaster in the Master were not nearly as strong. Displays arnd controls are a wash in my mind. The Marquis does have extra pump buttons for the users on the far side of the tub so they can turn pumps on and off without going to the control.

Comfort wise I found the  Marquis Maskoka style lounger to be very comfy. Its a mix of Lounge and upright. So you get the benefit of the lounge without giving up as much space. The Master was very comfy as well. Just loose some seating space to the lounge.

I also measured noise in a pretty unscientific method, using my phone. I turned pumps up to max and put my phone at the main seating spots. The Marquis came i around 65-67DB with my family in it (raising the water level submerging all the jets). The Master was at 70-72DB but with the neck jets unsubmerged as no one was in the tub. Turning the neck jets off it came down the 68-70... Really a wash in my mind.

The frame is wood as mentioned on the Master. The cabinet seemed fine in my mind. But I maybe did not look as closely as I should have.

Price wise they are pretty close with the advantage going to the Marquis right now. Master did drop the price a fair bit from the initial offer, where I think the Marquis guy keeps margins pretty tight based on the other Marquis store I visited.

Once spec that struck me as odd today.. Not sure I am reading to much into it..

The Master is 94x94x38 and about 400 gallons
The Marquis is 90x90x35 and about 450 g
The Artisian is 91x91x36 and about 450 g.

Odd that the largest tub has the smallest water capacity. Anything to this or just more empty space and nothing to consider?

Cheers folks. I think we are water testing the Artisian on Sunday.

On the Artisian front. Anything to the number of pumps they are putting in? Master and Marquis are 2, the Artisian is 3 or 4 plus a circ? Should I expect more out of the jets for all the extra HP in pumps?

Mike

[Hottubguy]

I had a similar experience when shopping around last year. The master dealer was lightyears behind the others in sales practices. Their entire process seemed antiquated and shoddy.
They first tried to sell me on a tub which the buyer had flaked during one of their tent sales - which they insisted they have no control over, and the manufacturer dictates the dates and the terms to them. They claimed the buyer put down a deposit, but couldn't finance the remainder and they were willing to sell me the hot tub minus the deposit which was a great deal. It was a red flag, and my BS meter was pinging off the charts. Then the dealer tried to sell me on the 'no chemicals needed' pitch, which was really just the mineral stick/MPS method. MPS is obviously a chemical (and I think you still need some chlorine). I'm OK w/ some sales pitch, but it was the way the dealer insisted Master had figured out a special method that nobody else in the industry could replicate, a method which mitigated the need for any type of chemical at all. It was insulting to my intelligence.

I was ready to walk by that point, only 15 minutes into my visit.
The final straw was the wet test. When I asked about a wet test, the dealer asked me to put down a deposit just to wet test their twilight series tub. No thanks.

This was all before I knew anything about the quality of the tub relative to the competition or their reputation as a business.

The dealer in question was Crocker Sales in Woburn, MA.

Funny you should mention that dealer. I service a lot of tubs sold from there

[Hottubguy]

All the recent replies really seem to be saying one thing.. You need to trust the dealer you are going to buy from..

I have had the experience of trash talking brands sales guys at a few stores. It has been the lower end stores mostly. That said I like our local Marquis dealer. Seems decent, honest and easy going... I stopped by another Marquis dealer while I was away on training last week just to get a feel for the price I was offered. I mentioned the other brands I was intereted in and he went into a diatribe about how they do not even compare and trashing them all. When I finally managed to get a price out of him he was 3k more then my local store who I have not really negotiated with..Guy was just a shill. But two different stores selling the same thing. One I would gladly recommend even if I don't buy from them myself and another that is as crooked as they come.


To update on the process..

I did sit in the master today - Twilight 7.2.. Comparing the the Marquis I would say the jets are stronger. That said Marquis makes up for some of this with the Hot Zone Jets which were amazing. The Foot Blaster in the Master were not nearly as strong. Displays arnd controls are a wash in my mind. The Marquis does have extra pump buttons for the users on the far side of the tub so they can turn pumps on and off without going to the control.

Comfort wise I found the  Marquis Maskoka style lounger to be very comfy. Its a mix of Lounge and upright. So you get the benefit of the lounge without giving up as much space. The Master was very comfy as well. Just loose some seating space to the lounge.

I also measured noise in a pretty unscientific method, using my phone. I turned pumps up to max and put my phone at the main seating spots. The Marquis came i around 65-67DB with my family in it (raising the water level submerging all the jets). The Master was at 70-72DB but with the neck jets unsubmerged as no one was in the tub. Turning the neck jets off it came down the 68-70... Really a wash in my mind.

The frame is wood as mentioned on the Master. The cabinet seemed fine in my mind. But I maybe did not look as closely as I should have.

Price wise they are pretty close with the advantage going to the Marquis right now. Master did drop the price a fair bit from the initial offer, where I think the Marquis guy keeps margins pretty tight based on the other Marquis store I visited.

Once spec that struck me as odd today.. Not sure I am reading to much into it..

The Master is 94x94x38 and about 400 gallons
The Marquis is 90x90x35 and about 450 g
The Artisian is 91x91x36 and about 450 g.

Odd that the largest tub has the smallest water capacity. Anything to this or just more empty space and nothing to consider?

Cheers folks. I think we are water testing the Artisian on Sunday.

On the Artisian front. Anything to the number of pumps they are putting in? Master and Marquis are 2, the Artisian is 3 or 4 plus a circ? Should I expect more out of the jets for all the extra HP in pumps?

Mike

You hit on a great point. The best dealer in the world could sell the crappiest tub but if he supports it well and is good at what he is doing you will more then likely be happy. On the flip side a bad dealer can sell the best tub and if he doesn’t take care of you as a customer you will have a negative experience.

I believe the Artesian uses more pumps but I also believe they are smaller pumps. Sounds like you looked st the Epic by Marquis. I own the Resort. That chair is my favorite seat in any tub.  Bad mouthing the competition is usually a great way to lose a perspective sale.  $3000 is a big difference. Where are you at price wise on the Epic because I’m shocked it’s cheaper then the Master?  Which Master are you considering?

[Michael Russell]

Hey Hottubguy...

The three(ish) we are looking at in order of price highest to lowest with a little over $1000 spread.

Artisian  Grand Cayman/Bahama (Lounge vs no Lounge)
Master 8.25/8.2
Marquis Epic/Euphoria

As I write this and look over the numbers again, I need to confirm what jet package I have pricing on the artisian. They have quite a few options. It maybe that I have pricing on the 52 jet version which is 2 x 6BHP motors which is the same as the others. I think I want the 61 jet foot blasters though which is the 2 x 6BHP and an extra 3BHP motor. So price wise I am not positive I am comparing apples on the Artisian at this point. Or, maybe I am comparing apples but I want the orange ;-)

I will be there tomorrow at some point to confirm thought.

Cheers,

Mike

edit...


I went back and look at pictures.. The pretty sure its pricing on the 62 jet version which is 2 x 6bhp and 1 x 3bhp pumps. I (think) want the 61 jet plus 2 foot blasters which has the same pump package.  To add, artisian also has a circ pump. Master and Marquis are both without circ.

Mike

I believe the Artesian uses more pumps but I also believe they are smaller pumps. Sounds like you looked st the Epic by Marquis. I own the Resort. That chair is my favorite seat in any tub.  Bad mouthing the competition is usually a great way to lose a perspective sale.  $3000 is a big difference. Where are you at price wise on the Epic because I’m shocked it’s cheaper then the Master?  Which Master are you considering?

[The Wizard of Spas]

Gallonage / Capacity is about how the mold is made.  Everyone uses 100 x 100 inch sheets of acrylic on larger tubs.  But one may not make as strong of a shell than others.  Therefor, they make a larger frame.  This larger frame in turn creates a larger lip, which in turn pushes everything into the center of the tub, in turn lessening the cubic footage available, in turn lessening the gallonage / capacity.

*OR*

The seats may not sit as deep which could also lessen the capacity 

*OR*

The manufacturer may be overstating the gallonage / capacity.

*OR*

The tub just isn't as efficient with the usage of space compared to another model / brand

*OR*

Some combination of or all of these things, and probably something I didn't really think of / forgot.  I think gallons really don't tell you much-  It's like square footage on a house:  You can have tons of space but if it is not used efficiently / effectively, it really takes away from the experience.

You're on the right path and asking fair questions.  But don't overthink this:  Start with comfort and feel of the jets.  This is #1, 2 & 3 on the list of priorities.  Then consider the dealer.  From there, if you still don't have your answer, then start to winnow the options down based on price and features, and continue to ask the fine folks that participate in this forum.

[Michael Russell]

Thanks Wizard...

A couple of the dealers have asked me what my priorities were. Had to think about that question.. But I came down to these three..
1. Comfort and Massage
2. Dealer
3. Price

Beyond that its all semantics. Much of what I am asking about and researching is just me learning. I am the type that does not dive in head first generally. I research and educate myself about all the the possibilities.

A buddy decided he was interested in a hot tub as well and has been budding me about where to and what to buy. He almost bought a Hydropool but I convinced him to take a trip to the Marquis dealer I like as its a short distance from his place. Anyways he put a deposit down on an Epic today.  I wonder if they have a referral bonus :-)

Tomorrow is the Artisian.. Then time to make a decision...

Thanks again all...

[Michael Russell]

Well after much ado... I ordered a tub today...

I have a Marquis Epic coming in about 4 weeks. In the end the Marquis won on all 3 points I picked as important.
1. Comfort and Massage
I really like the Marquis Muskoka style lounge. The other I found you sacrifced to much space with the lounge. Further I found the others lounge comfortable  for me but not the rest of the family. Massage and jetting I would put them all pretty equal. With although Marquis would be the lowest. But so close its hard to say..

2. Dealer
My artisian dealer is a nice lady but just not much passion and no negotiating.
Master was great to deal with. My favorite sales guy of the bunch. No pressure, easy to talk to. The 200km distance though is not a great option when I need a proprietary filter or have emergency work needed.
Marquis is my closet dealer of the 3. The sales guy is pretty high strung but easy to get on with though. Very passionate and gave me what I think is a great deal.  His price was 3 - 4k cheaper then the other 2 Marquis dealers I checked out.

3. Price
Marquis was my cheapest option. Further I got another $300 knocked off for sending a friend in who bought a tub. Only problem is he bought the tub I would have got, now I have to wait 4 weeks and his is being delivered today!

I appreciate everyone's insight through out. I am sure I will be back with some chemistry questions soon enough. In the mean time I will continue to linger and help out with some of the easier questions people ask.

Thanks again all

Mike

[castletonia]

Congrats!!!  The Epic is an awesome hot tub that I'm sure you will enjoy for years.

[Hottubguy]

Well after much ado... I ordered a tub today...

I have a Marquis Epic coming in about 4 weeks. In the end the Marquis won on all 3 points I picked as important.
1. Comfort and Massage
I really like the Marquis Muskoka style lounge. The other I found you sacrifced to much space with the lounge. Further I found the others lounge comfortable  for me but not the rest of the family. Massage and jetting I would put them all pretty equal. With although Marquis would be the lowest. But so close its hard to say..

2. Dealer
My artisian dealer is a nice lady but just not much passion and no negotiating.
Master was great to deal with. My favorite sales guy of the bunch. No pressure, easy to talk to. The 200km distance though is not a great option when I need a proprietary filter or have emergency work needed.
Marquis is my closet dealer of the 3. The sales guy is pretty high strung but easy to get on with though. Very passionate and gave me what I think is a great deal.  His price was 3 - 4k cheaper then the other 2 Marquis dealers I checked out.

3. Price
Marquis was my cheapest option. Further I got another $300 knocked off for sending a friend in who bought a tub. Only problem is he bought the tub I would have got, now I have to wait 4 weeks and his is being delivered today!

I appreciate everyone's insight through out. I am sure I will be back with some chemistry questions soon enough. In the mean time I will continue to linger and help out with some of the easier questions people ask.

Thanks again all

Mike

Did you buy a special order or a tub they have on order. My hardest part about being a Marquis dealer is the long wait to get tubs. It is a great tub though. I own a Marquis myself