Nitro's Guide to Water Maintenance

[chem geek]

And as for water balance factors, there are 6, not 4, that must be taken into account:
Temp, CH, TA, pH, metals and TDS (Total Dissolved Solids).  

This is based on using the Langolier (or Saturation) Index.  In almost all cases, however, metals will not be added into the formula.  They should be considered since metals and calcium are both minerals that can and will be dissolved into water.  This is the main reason most professionals use Total Hardness vs. Calcium Hardness when using the Saturation Index (SI) formula.

For those that are interested, the formula for it is as follows:

SI = Ft + pH +Fta + Fch - 12.1

Ft is the temp factor, Fta is the TA factor, Fch is the CH factor (Total Hardness could be substituted here).  12.1 is the value used assuming TDS is 1200 ppm or lower.  That value must be raised by .1 for every 1000 ppm over 1200 ppm.

If anyone would like the SI Values for calculation, I'd be more than happy to post them.  I, on the other hand, let my computer do the calculating for me.

Ideal range for SI is +.3 to -.3, with 0 being ideal.  When SI is zero, the water is neither scale forming or corrosive.  Above zero, and it tends to form scale; below zero and it tends to be corrosive.

While yes, this is overkill by most people's book, I'm only putting it out here because if we're going to give out this much information, it needs to be as complete as possible.  

And if anyone would like to know where this info came from, it can be found in any BioGuard Dealers ChemPlus book.

You can get a reasonably accurate calculation of the saturation index by using The Pool Calculator.  It is incorrect to use Total Hardness in place of Calcium Hardness.  Total Hardness includes magnesium, whereas it is the saturation of calcium carbonate that is important because it is calcium carbonate that forms scale first and it is calcium carbonate that is in plaster/gunite/grout.  At the same carbonate level, it takes 9 times as much magnesium as calcium to precipitate magnesium carbonate so it is NOT factor in the saturation index.  You should use Calcium Hardness (CH).  Generally speaking, in most water, the Total Hardness (TH) is around 40-70% higher than the Calcium Hardness (CH), but unless the magnesium were at extraordinarily high levels, then it is not a factor (except as general TDS, but you already covered that).

Also, the formula you gave is fairly standard in the industry but isn't quite right, though the accurate formula isn't much different.  Mostly, the TDS and temperature adjustments are off a little (this mostly affects SWG pools and spas).

Richard

[Nitro]

If you ever worked in the spa industry you would know that getting the spa owner to care for their water is not as simple as you think. Your guide will work fine for 10% of spa owners if it was a dealer tried to use it IMO. That % is higher on this site of course because people coming here are generally more willing to learn than the average spa owner but I guarantee you that a majority of spa owners who saw a 4 page guide would either not get past the first page or would not even attempt it in the first place and would come into the store or call and ask "can someone explain this in simple terms". Of course a good dealer goes over this with a spa owner at time of purchase and gives a simple 1 page guide after explaining it so the customer has some reference material after the tutorial.

It’s all about understanding your audience and I'm sure many will love the "Nitro Guide to Water Maintenance" because it is very thorough but so was my chemistry textbook in college but whenever I read that I’d get half way through a section and find I retained little because my mind was wandering with thoughts of what game is on tonight, where were the parties happening, why did I choose this major where no women are in my classes, etc. I'm just speaking about what will work for a dealer and spa customers.

I'm not saying it's easy to get new customers to care for the water, nor did I say my guide will work for every new spa owner. I posted it here for the poeple who want to learn NOT to have problems. For the people that don't want to learn, well, we'll see them when they start having problems.

[Spatech_tuo]

For the people that don't want to learn, well, we'll see them when they start having problems.

I prefer to teach them up front but even if they've failed (yes they do listen better then) understanding HOW to teach them is important.  I've dealt with the people who go in thinking they won't understand, those who've failed reading the spa manual, those who don't think they have time to listen and those who'll listen, take notes, ask questions etc. For all of them we have very effective stream lined instructions and verbally explain what it all means. I'm not an expert on water care but I am as expert as anyone at knowing how to teach relative to spas so they'll grasp it and have a shot.

I've been in close to a thousand back yards teaching people how to care for their water. I can’t talk theory like a chemist as much as I can tell people what works, what to watch for, how to adjust to certain situations, why Ph/Alk matters, etc. I also roll my eyes at comments saying if you use dichlor you need to change your water every month or two when those of us with practical experience know that is ridiculous.

[Nitro]

I prefer to teach them up front but even if they've failed (yes they do listen better then) understanding HOW to teach them is important.  I've dealt with the people who go in thinking they won't understand, those who've failed reading the spa manual, those who don't think they have time to listen and those who'll listen, take notes, ask questions etc. For all of them we have very effective stream lined instructions and verbally explain what it all means. I'm not an expert on water care but I am as expert as anyone at knowing how to teach relative to spas so they'll grasp it and have a shot.

I've been in close to a thousand back yards teaching people how to care for their water. I can’t talk theory like a chemist as much as I can tell people what works, what to watch for, how to adjust to certain situations, why Ph/Alk matters, etc. I also roll my eyes at comments saying if you use dichlor you need to change your water every month or two when those of us with practical experience know that is ridiculous.

You have experience teaching people to maintain their spas, which is great. I myself have taught a few people in person how to maintain their water. It's much easier when you're there to show them. Unfortunately, not everone has personal access to you (or me), so they come on here.

Again, that's why I wrote this guide. However, if I knew it was going to cause this much trouble, I never would have. I'd much rather be spending my time helping spa owners, then arguing about the length and methods.

[Nitro]

After all these negative posts about this guide, it's good to hear a POSITIVE one.

[Zep]

Nitro...wow what an amazing knowledge you have about
water quality and chemical issues with hot tubs/pools.

Thanks for your insight and sharing.

It all seems rather overwhelming to an average consumer like me.

Which begs the question....do you ever think water quality issues will
become more automated with hot tubs?

It appears to me that there is a huge segment of hot tub owners that are
confused, frustrated, and do not have the patience to keep up with the water
issues in their tub, so they basically just thrown some bromine tablets
in a float, maybe throw in some "shock" every so often, change their
water every couple of months and well...."hope for the best".[/b]

[JeffB]

For what it is worth, I have roughly used Richard's bleach system through at least the last 3 water changes, which is about a year. It works very well for me and my tub. You have to watch for rising PH a little more, but no real problem. The quality of the water seems to hold longer than with diclor, and the effectiveness of the sanitizer does not diminsh over time as with diclor. The system is really not very radical. It is essentially the Vermonter method, but you switch from diclor to bleach after a week or two. You can shock with MPS or diclor just as with a diclor system. There should not be a big fuss. The way a tub is used, how many users, how closely it is watched, etc will eventually lead to a particular sanitizing system. For example, if you have kids (particularly teenagers) regularly using the tub, the way I once did, the best system I found was bromine tablets in a floater. In any event, bleach can work if one wants to use it.  Jeff

[Nitro]

Which begs the question....do you ever think water quality issues will
become more automated with hot tubs?

I think the way water maintenance becomes automated is if we demand it, and start thinking outside the box.

As I mentioned in another thread, Salt Water Chlorine Generators have been around a long time in pools, but getting more popular in spas, Onzen for instance. There is also a portable SWCG such as the Spa Pilot.

I personally like the idea of The Liquidator, built for spas, that will despense Chlorinated Liquid (Bleach) at a steady amount. It actually adds less TDS to the spa than adding straight bleach to the tub. That would allow you to go even longer between water changes.

Who knows, maybe someone on this board will come out with another idea that will make it easier/safer to maintain spa/pool water.

It appears to me that there is a huge segment of hot tub owners that are
confused, frustrated, and do not have the patience to keep up with the water
issues in their tub, so they basically just thrown some bromine tablets
in a float, maybe throw in some "shock" every so often, change their
water every couple of months and well...."hope for the best".[/b]

This is the main reason I wrote this thread. I feel that hot tub water maintenance (or anything) is more difficult the less you know about. As you learn more about something it becomes much easier. There is a learning curve with this, and ALL methods. But many people who do use this method find that it's not difficult at all. Actually, I believe it's easier, because you have far less water problems to deal with.

But I'm always looking to improve things, so this method is not the do all end all.

[Nitro]

For what it is worth, I have roughly used Richard's bleach system through at least the last 3 water changes, which is about a year. It works very well for me and my tub. You have to watch for rising PH a little more, but no real problem. The quality of the water seems to hold longer than with diclor, and the effectiveness of the sanitizer does not diminsh over time as with diclor. The system is really not very radical. It is essentially the Vermonter method, but you switch from diclor to bleach after a week or two. You can shock with MPS or diclor just as with a diclor system. There should not be a big fuss. The way a tub is used, how many users, how closely it is watched, etc will eventually lead to a particular sanitizing system. For example, if you have kids (particularly teenagers) regularly using the tub, the way I once did, the best system I found was bromine tablets in a floater. In any event, bleach can work if one wants to use it.  Jeff

FYI, if your pH is rising to much, you can try lowering your TA to 50-60 ppm. Also, we found that the use of Borates (50 ppm) greatly reduces it pH rise. There is a product called Gentle Spa that is pH neutral, and makes it easy to  Borates. The cheaper way is to use Borax (20 Mule Team) and acid. Check out The Pool Calculator for details on how much to add.

[TubsAndCues]

I think the way water maintenance becomes automated is if we demand it, and start thinking outside the box.

Major problem I've seen with automated systems is the cost.  I know that one of the reasons (but not all) that you prefer bleach over dichlor is the price difference.

Any time more stuff like this gets added, it gets pricey really fast.  I've seen it in a number of pool systems on the market.  You'll pay for the ease, but then it's just a question of what's more important to you.

[silversun]

I was interested in this method, and searched for this thread. very informative, and I'm considering using this method on my recently purchased sundance optima.

I'm interested to know, nearly a decade later, how well does this advice hold up? Would anyone who subscribes to this method change anything? I'm wondering if technological progress in the last decade has outstripped parts of the advice. specifically the advice about never letting chlorine get to zero.

 i have a sundance optima with clear ray and high output ozone, and mineral cartridge. My chlorine level frequently gets to zero. So, should i ignore that part? Should I ignore other parts?

[Aquatub88]

Is the Taylor test kit usable for both a spa and a pool or are we talking about two different types of test kits?  Thanks

[bud16415]

I was interested in this method, and searched for this thread. very informative, and I'm considering using this method on my recently purchased sundance optima.

I'm interested to know, nearly a decade later, how well does this advice hold up? Would anyone who subscribes to this method change anything? I'm wondering if technological progress in the last decade has outstripped parts of the advice. specifically the advice about never letting chlorine get to zero.

 i have a sundance optima with clear ray and high output ozone, and mineral cartridge. My chlorine level frequently gets to zero. So, should i ignore that part? Should I ignore other parts?

I don’t think too much has changed with the dichlor/bleach method. We bought our tub 3 years ago and for a year or so I was going crazy with bromine and mineral cartridges in a frog inline feeder system supplemented with ozone. @ease was not yet on the market.

My conclusion was the minerals don’t do enough if anything to be worth the cost. Ozone generators help to some degree but have a lifespan and diminish over that lifespan in their usefulness.

I follow the dichlor/bleach method pretty much as laid out above. I wait a bit longer for the stabilizer to around 40/50 PPM as I seem to add water and even do partial water changes during the winter months to extend water life. This method is a lot cheaper than any other method except salt generation and with salt there is a bigger up front cost if the system is built in.

Because my tub has the inline feeder I don’t use day to day I put it to use when we go away for a week or more. I put in a @ease cartridge to cover the sanitation when no one is around. I go a step more and I take the top off the cartridge and take out and store the contents and just use one forth of a cartridge per week we will be gone.

A few months back I added salt to our tub in the concentration needed for a salt to chlorine system. I wanted to see how we liked the feel of the salt. We do. Hopefully sometime before fall I will be buying a saltron mini and installing it for the tub.

I’m very happy doing the dichlor/bleach method and IMO it is the most straightforward easy to get onto method. It gets you involved with knowing what is going on with your water. I didn’t find the OP’s description to be overly complex at all.

In the end everyone finds a method that works for them best.