Help Finding a Large Hot Tub

[Spatech_tuo]

Stuart,

Since you seem to know a lot about Master Spas can you elaborate on my horsepower issue that was raised?  I’m still trying to figure out how they get 19.5 HP on a 50Amp service.  Could they be lying to me about the true HP on their spa?  Could the HP be part of the “buffoonery sales pitch?”

Your hole isn’t that deep in my book.  You have another 2 feet to go.  I have a shovel if you want it.

Chris H

The obvious answer would be that Master quotes the VERY deceptive "brake" HP rating and may also have it set up to turn off the heater if all 3 pumps are running. I have little respect for companies that rate in brake HP only as they ABSOLUTELY know that many customers will be fooled by this. I've seen it many times where people can't understand why brand X has a 5.0 HP pump while the same size brand Y is 2.5 HP until you explain it to them. Their reaction is always to conclude someone has been trying to deceive them.

I decided to see what MasterSpas website shows. The very reputable companies will generally quote the continuous HP and in parenthesis quote the brake (or vice versa) to let everyone know what it REALLY has and give them a basis for comparison. On Master's site I went to their showroom and to each spa and found a link that says "CLICK HERE FOR COMPLETE SPECIFICATIONS". In doing so the spec comes up and sure enough they state that they rate their pumps in break (sic) HP and don't bother to tell the customer what they really need to know, the continuous HP. That is ridiculous. I can only assume their dealer literature also shows everything in HP. That's kind of like opening a 16 oz bottle of beer and finding that the brewery only puts 9 oz in it.

[stuart]

Stuart,

Since you seem to know a lot about Master Spas can you elaborate on my horsepower issue that was raised?  I’m still trying to figure out how they get 19.5 HP on a 50Amp service.  Could they be lying to me about the true HP on their spa?  Could the HP be part of the “buffoonery sales pitch?”

Your hole isn’t that deep in my book.  You have another 2 feet to go.  I have a shovel if you want it.

Chris H

I would be happy to elaborate! The math as far as I know from talking to motor manufactures is this; you need 3 amps for every 1 HP of continuous operation in a pump motor. This would mean that a spa with a total of 19.5 HP would draw 58.5 amps before it ever turns on the heater (which should be close to 20 amps) or anything else. In addition, to meet code you would have to be at least 25% over this for your breaker size. This would mean that by the time you included ozone and light you would need more than a 100 amp breaker! I don't think they recommend over a 60 amp on any Master spa so I to would have to question the honesty of the HP rating in that spa.

Funny, I'm questioning quality based on real experience and not throwing out insults or jabs. My comments were left there to solicit answers not to see if I could get windsurfdog on the defensive about who I am. I did not throw out "inane criticism" yet brought up points of concern I had with the product. I would call his tone towards me inane criticism. As far as my reputation, I don't think it is in question here or on any other forum other than JA's site where I refuse to post and be at his control for what is deleted or not. I have pictures of the spas that are current and very self explanatory but have yet to figure out how to post a pic. I will try to do that tonight or in the AM.

I know for a fact that there are good Master spa dealers out there and that can make the difference between their mediocre quality and the exceptional quality of other brands however, Master built a huge percentage of their business on rebate programs and spa shows that they "set up" by choosing what other spas where in the show so they could make their product look better.

I do choose to dig this hole bigger and most certainly will! I’m in the middle of 2 shows and limited on time so I think it would be worth my while to pull a chapter out of Masters own book by having my IT person create a page in my stead outlining the issues and points I brought out complete with pictures. I will have him post a link when he is done with that. In the mean time bash away but use any strong points you know on the product as your ammo rather than mindless attacks on me.

I'll be back gotta go buy a new shovel......

[knowsabit]

look at the Sundance Maxxus and the Dimension One Serena Bay these are the only tubs in that size that I would recommend.  I'm not impressed by Master Spas.

FWIW
my $.02
IMHO

[spaguyohio]

well everyone has opinions. Whats good for one is not necessarily good for another. If you like it, buy it regardless of brand. As long as you, your wallet/pocketbook are happy, then thats all that matters.

[windsurfdog]

Stuart,
Please, facts only.  Read your first post, take out the opinions that were stated as facts and here's what you've got left:

"I like the power and massage from a Master and the stereo sounds great when it is working (we had failure on 80% of those too!) but IMO the quality of the materials and workmanship will not hold up over time."

The rest is also your opinion though not stated as such.

I'll be glad to report back to you in.....how many days/months/years of service are you giving my LSX that was delivered on 7/11/04?  Don't be shy to predict when my rat infested tub frame will crumble from rust as the overrated motors spew water over the state of Florida.  In the meantime, keep digging and enjoy your spur.....

[rocket]

Of the spas that you mentioned and getting the size that you want, the Sundance and D-1 are definitely the 2 best of the 4.  Better than the master spas.

Better manufacturing, better warranty, more energy efficient.  All of which will save you time, money and frustration in the long run.

If a dealer is really concerned about meeting your needs, they will be more than happy to fill and power up the specific spa that you are considering.  If not, then I wouldn't do business with them.  It's alot of money.

[windsurfdog]

Of the spas that you mentioned and getting the size that you want, the Sundance and D-1 are definitely the 2 best of the 4.  Better than the master spas.

Better manufacturing, better warranty, more energy efficient.  All of which will save you time, money and frustration in the long run.

Looks like rocket chooses to join those that would blur the lines of fact and opinion.  If he has proof that Sundance and D1 have better manufacturing, better warranty and more energy efficient, he should belly up with facts to support his assertions.

iggman,
Please do yourself a favor and listen to Chas and others like him.  If you want to listen to me, here's my advice:
Wet test, wet test, wet test.  Find a good dealer that you trust and find a tub that is comfortable to you.  You asked about large tubs and you now should wet test all that have been suggested.  I feel you would be very happy with the Sundance, the D1 or (horrors!) the Master Spa.  As a Master Spa owner, I can tell you factually and truthfully that I am ecstatic with my spa choice and now only time will tell if I will remain as happy (Stuart, got that prediction ready yet?).  Read my review on the LSX in the reviews section--I took the time to give both my opnions and some facts about the LSX from my actual experiences.  And also read as much as you can about the Optima, Chairman II and Lotus Bay because you will find many more people who own these and they can be favorably compared to their larger counterparts.
Separate the facts from the opinions and enjoy your search.

Let the MasterBashers continue to drivel on......

[rocket]

I would be happy to answer the horsepower question on the master spa for stuart.

Physically impossible.  There would be too much amerage drawn for a 50 amp circuit to handle!  Talk to any electrician or consult UL or National Electric Code
concerning the draw of electric motors and circuits.


Any spa company boasting of hp and jet count is doing this industry a disservice and misleading (lying to) customers.  

[windsurfdog]

I would be happy to answer the horsepower question on the master spa for stuart.

Physically impossible.  There would be too much amerage drawn for a 50 amp circuit to handle!  Talk to any electrician or consult UL or National Electric Code
concerning the draw of electric motors and circuits.
 

Any spa company boasting of hp and jet count is doing this industry a disservice and misleading (lying to) customers.  

Why don't you answer your own assertions and let Stuart do his own homework?

Look, it boils down to this--as an informed consumer one can see right through the horsepower, number of jets bull without any problem.  If one cares to hang their hat on everything any manufacturer claims without question, then one is a fool.  Advertising is just that--advertising.  Just do the homework and leave the drivel out of it.  I will not justify Master Spas' use of "6.5 hp" or "77 jets" or anything else that they may say to sell their product.  I've separated the fluff from the substance and found the substance to be quite appealing.

Drivel on........

[Chas]

I would say that it should be obvious: no machine can have that much horsepower and  run on a 50 amp 220 volt (single phase) service.

A horspower is 745 Watts, or about 3.5 amps at 220 volts. That means that if you shut off the heater, blower, everything except the jet pumps, the max you could support would be just over 11 horsepower.That is based on 80% of the 50 amp limit- which is what the NEC limits a branch circuit to. That is all based on pure numbers, meaning that my example does not allow for inefficiencies in the wiring, motors, etc.

BUT - most people don't want to shut off the heat when the jets are on. So - if you have a 6000 watt heater (27 amps) you only have 13 amps left to play with, or 4 horsepower max - again, based on only being able to legally pull 40 amps on a 50 amp breaker. Hot Spring just added larger 2.5 HP pumps to a couple of our models, and to accomodate the extra motor power we dropped those models to a 4000 watt heater. All of our systems can run at the same time, on a 50 amp run. That's a real, honest five horse system, and it kicks butt. Try it.

SO - either Master spa is using phony numbers on it's pump ratings - which is very common these days - or they have rigged the tubs so you can only run one pump at a time, or the heater goes off when the jets come on, or?

[empolgation]

SO - either Master spa is using phony numbers on it's pump ratings - which is very common these days - or they have rigged the tubs so you can only run one pump at a time, or the heater goes off when the jets come on, or?

... Master spa pumps use miniture horses that run 52 watts per leg

[stuart]

Chas, empolgation, Chris_H, d1chairmanII, rocket, Spatech t.u.o.,
Thanks for digging into the "hole" with me! Maybe if we all dig together we can find some treasure here!

I hope Spatech brought a whole case of that half full beer, we might be here awhile!

That's kind of like opening a 16 oz bottle of beer and finding that the brewery only puts 9 oz in it.

[windsurfdog]

Still waiting for your predictions, Stuart.

[doodoo]

I was going to stay out of this little discussion but......fools rush in, especially when they read something that just irks them.

Although I am not an engineer, I have a number of them that work for me.  Welcome to my world! They are a great bunch though.

There are two constants in the universe.  The first is that the math never lies. This I learned from these engineers. The second is that perception is always 9/10th of reality. So when you are told something that leaves you with the impression that something in particular is far superior to something else, I tend to say......hummmmm! Why is that. Others would simply say the math does'nt lie so it must be great.

What Stuart, Chas, Spatech and a number of others have posted is correct. I don't see much opinion in many of those posts, especially when they write something based on mathematical fact.  They stated exactly what the math proves. Some just don't seem to like the answer. Tubs have been purchased for very personal reasons, and the final truism was probably the wet test which does not fall into any of the two constants I noted above.  

As a recent buyer, I found it very frustrating to compare the so many different products out there when it came time to look at the specifics. I was explained that a particular tub has a HP of X power and when I visited other dealers was explained something very different.    Those that were giving me high numbers of course were quoting the Break HP. Once I was explained what the difference is between these two very different sets of numbers I then went back to all of the dealers that had quoted me in Break HP to get the continuous HP. And lo and behold all of a sudden you had a very different picture that you could then compare more intelligently. Interestingly enough, some did not (could not?) give me that number.

I don't profess to promote one product over another here, because we all bought our tub based individual preferences and experiences. But quoting the break HP is very misleading because it has nothing to do with the actual strength of the pumps when it comes to moving water and its energy efficiency when it comes to consumption.

[windsurfdog]

I don't profess to promote one product over another here, because we all bought our tub based individual preferences and experiences. But quoting the break HP is very misleading because it has nothing to do with the actual strength of the pumps when it comes to moving water and its energy efficiency when it comes to consumption.

Finally, someone who speaks without a spur and a shovel.  Thanks, doodoo, you've summed up my point succinctly.  And though I didn't quote the balance of your post, I agree in totality.  What I did quote is the entire crux of this thread.

Welcome to the wonderful world of advertising!

When one is contemplating a major purchase, one shouldn't walk into a showroom with Christmas morning eyes and a pocket full of cash.  It takes time and effort to sift through the mountain of information that each dealer/manufacturer produces.  I paid absolutely no attention at all regarding Master Spas' claim of 6.5 hp--I sat in the tub full of water on the showroom floor and liked what I felt--period.  I laughed at/with the dealer when he told me the LSX had 77 jets....heck I counted'em....and when you count the 2 MasterBlaster jets with 15 nozzles each as 30, sure enough you get 77!  Marketing.....pure marketing.  It doesn't take a degree from Harvard to see through it.  Yet, some on this board refuse to separate fact from opinion and, yes, marketing.  If anyone wishes to continue this thread, enjoy.  And if anyone wishes to read this thread, I suggest they start at the top and read to the bottom and make their own conclusions.  Done.