Startup guide for Bromine Use

[Snowjob]

Hi,
unless my searching skills are lacking I don't see an 'idiots' guide to starting up a tub with Bromine.  Specifically a Jacuzzi J470

The step that seems a bit confusing to me is the 'build a bromide base' and then shock phase.

i have purchased the Leisure Time Sodium Bromide 2 oz packages, one should be enough for a 400 gal tub, but can I use the off the shelf Jacuzzi Brand 'Spa Shock' to 'activate / oxidize' the  Sodium Bromide

so steps are;
1) fill
2) heat
3) balance Alkalinity, hardness and pH
4) add the 2 oz Sodium Bromide
5) Shock ---- but how much??
6) setup the floating Bromine tab / puck dispenser and begin trial and error on the dispense rate

anyone have any suggestions?

thanks
 

[Livefast]

This might help. I found this when i was searching bromine. Since then i developed a rash from bromine and switched to chlorine rash went away. Would like to give bromine another try when its warmer so if it bothers me again it's easy to dump and refill tub.   


How do I use Bromine in my spa (or pool)?

Originally Posted by waterbear
There is a lot of misinformation on the proper way to use Bromine so I hope this primer is helpful.

First, you need to establish a bromide reserve in the water. Bromine tablets can do it by themselves but it can take literally weeks until enough dissolves. Some people crush about 6 of them up and put them in the water on each water change to achieve this but it really is easier and cheaper to add a packet or two of sodium bromide! It is available from such companies as HTH, Leisure Time, Robarb (Rendezvous) and others. Bromine tablets contain both bromine and chlorine to oxidize the bromine into active sanitizer. (There is one that I know of on the market that contains MPS instead of chlorine but it works exactly the same way.) If you do not add the sodium bromide and just put in bromine tabs then you will be starting with a chlorine system until enough bromide dissolves in the water.

There are basically two ways to do a bromine system--2-step and 3-step. In the 2-step system you add the sodium bromide to the water to the proper concentration, then add oxidizer on a regular basis (usually chlorine, MPS or ozone or a combination of them) to oxidize the bromide ions into hypobromous acid, your active sanitizer. It's pretty easy but does require a bit of attention daily to maintain the bromine levels in the water.

A 3-step system is identical with the addition of bromine tabs in a floater. This will help maintain a more constant bromine level in the water with less maintenance but otherwise there is no difference. The 3-step system costs more since the bromine tablets are the most expensive part of this equation. The dimethylhydantoin in the tablets seems to have a similar (but not identical) function in a bromine system as CYA does in a chlorine system. It tends to stablilize it but, like CYA, too much is not good. Not that much info is readily available on the effects of dimethylhydantion other than that it makes the bromine more difficult to destroy, a consideration if you ever want to switch over to a chlorine system.

If you add sodium bromide to your water and have an ozonator you might be able to achieve the constant bromine level without the floater since the ozone is constantly oxidizing the bromide while it is on. However, you might deplete the bromide reserve quickly this way, leading to a shorter time between drain and refills. Also, ozone can cause bromates to form in your water. Bromates are a suspected carcinogen in drinking water.

You still need to superoxidize (shock), usually about once a week to destroy organics in the water whether you choose the 2-step or 3-step method.. I prefer plain, unscented laundry bleach (5.25%) for shocking a bromine spa. 1 cup per 250-300 gallons is about right. If you use Ultra bleach (6%) then you need about 3/4 cup. You can also use 12.5% pool chlorine at half the ultra bleach dose. They are all sodium hypochlorite, just in different strengths. If you do not want to use a liquid shock you can also use calcium hypochlorite granules (slow dissolving and will cause your calcium levels to rise), Lithium hypochlorite (very fast dissolving but very expensive, however my first choice for a granulated shock since it really has minimal impact on your water just like the liquid does), or MPS--potassium monopersulfate, also called non chlorine shock (will lower your pH and TA and add sulfates to your water). There is no advantage to using dichlor (stabilized chlorine) for shocking a bromine system but it probably wouldn't hurt. CYA (stabilizer) does not stabilize bromine.

Here is a step by step:
1) On each fill balance the water (adjust TA and pH. Add calcium if below 125 for acrylic spas or below 200 for plaster). More info here on balancing spa TA and PH, How do I use Chlorine in my Spa (or pool)?. If you have metals in your water add a metal sequesterant.
2) On each fill add sodium bromide to the water. (Follow manufacturer's directions on dosing. You will end up with about a 30 ppm concentration of sodium bromide.)
3) Shock with your preferred oxidizer (chlorine/bleach or MPS) and turn on the ozone if you are using it. Your bromine levels should now be above 10 ppm. Wait until they drop below 10 ppm before entering spa.

4) If using a 3-step system add your floater with bromine tabs and adjust it to maintain a 4-6 ppm bromine level. If using a 2-step system add your preferred oxidizer as needed (and adjust your ozone) to maintain a 4-6 ppm bromine level.

5) Shock weekly to burn off organics that collect in the water. (If you are using ozone and your bromine levels are staying at 4-6 ppm then you can shock less often.) Wait until the bromine level drops below 10 ppm before entering spa.

6) Test bromine and pH before entering spa each time. Test all water parameters (bromine, pH, TA, Calcium Hardness) weekly.

7) Drain and refill about every 3-4 months.

[bud16415]

I had bromine in my tub for less than a year and could never get it dialed in. Others seem to do better. I ended up switching to dichlor and found it much better and a simpler approach to keep working well.

With bromine you build a bank of sanitizer in your tub to draw off of. Thus the starter packets. My tub was just a little larger and I needed 2 packs to get started I believe. The bromine then from the feeder will replace what is used or lost. When bromine kills something my understanding is it forms a bromide and the weekly shocking releases the garbage from the bromine and reconverts the rest back to bromine again to start the cycle again.

My problem was my levels would get low I would shock and then my levels were so high I didn’t want to use the tub.

If you add any chlorine product like dichlor to bromine tub the chemistry of the tub somehow converts the chlorine to bromine. For that reason you cant switch an active bromine tub over to chlorine. You first have to drain and flush the tub. If you start with chlorine you can at any time switch it to bromine is my understanding.

You are right the information is scattered around the internet and much is conflicting. I’m not a chemist and this is just what I picked up reading like you are doing. Most dealers will tell you bromine is very easy just pop in a few tabs in a floater or put in a cartridge and you are good for a month. I figured I was testing all the time for everything else how hard is it to add a tablespoon of dichlor when it needed it.       

[Snowjob]

thanks for the replies

as you said the info seems scattered, which is a bit surprising given Bromine is probably the 2nd most used chemical out there.  You would think each manufacture would have a quick start guide for both Chlorine and Bromine written in a dumbed down way for new customers.

I seem to have a reaction to Chlorine, hence the idea of switching to Bromine to see if its better on the skin.

And as our tub is at a weekend lake house that we visit about every 2 weeks we need a system that can handle a lack of daily testing and adjusting, and it sounds like Bromine is a bit more tolerant to that

[bud16415]

I know having long cycles of time between usage makes Bromine or any floater or feeder a better choice.

One problem I thought about when changing from bromine to chlorine was what to do when we go on a vacation for a week or two.

Ironically my original reason from switching from bromine is I thought the bromine was causing me a skin irritation as well. We used friends tubs for years and never had skin issues and we get our own and then they started. I know now or at least I suspect it wasn’t the bromine or the chlorine as much as just when you own your own tub you are in it so much more. In my case I needed to do something I never had to do in my whole life and that was moisturize. It is a hard habit to get into as now we shower before and sometimes after and then moisturize. Not what you feel like doing when all relaxed at midnight and ready for sleep. I think it is just the hot water and soaking that takes the natural oils off your skin.

I switched from bromine to dichlor for simplicity and when I go away I switch to @ease chlorine in a feeder. If I was going to be gone for two weeks consistently I would without a doubt switch to salt and an aftermarket salt to chlorine generator. I would also set the water temp back to 95f or something like that when I leave it to go home. That’s just me you should give the floater a try and the above method of using bromine sounds very well thought out.

Like I said I have read so many reports of people using bromine and loving it give it a try and see if you are one of those people.     

[Snowjob]

thanks for the tips, I did wonder about the moisturizing thing, but what seems odd is with chlorine if I am in the tub for only 30 to 40 mins i get a reaction.  its similar to what folks call hot tub rash but it only affects me not the others in the tub.  The tub is less than 3 months old so I dont think that we would have a lot of biofilm build up yet.

So tomorrow as its supposed to be above freezing (we are in Canada, was -34c 2 weeks ago) we will drain, clean and refill and then give Bromine a spin.  Can't be any worse than what we have now (I hope)

[bud16415]

You don’t have biofilm if you did everyone would be having problems. Very unlikely IMO.

You sound exactly like what I was having issues with when we first got our tub only we started with bromine and went the other way.

It is worth the try switching it over and finding out and I hope it solves the problem.

In my case mostly in the winter our house is dry and skin is always dryer than normal to start with and the tub just adds to that dryness and causes exactly what you say you have in me. She has no problems at all nor do any of our guests. The big difference is she is a moisturizing person. Always putting on body lotions after showers and I’m the type of person that doesn’t want to feel oily after a shower I like the dry clean feeling.

Last night we were in the tub late and she went straight to bed after putting her lotion on. I stayed up a little and came to bed. First thing she asked is did you do your lotion. I said no and went to sleep. Wake up this morning sure enough I feel itchy.

Just something to keep in mind depending on how the bromine works for you.

I am becoming more of a proponent for moisturizing the older I get.

Good luck let us know how it goes.

[Livefast]

thanks for the tips, I did wonder about the moisturizing thing, but what seems odd is with chlorine if I am in the tub for only 30 to 40 mins i get a reaction.  its similar to what folks call hot tub rash but it only affects me not the others in the tub.  The tub is less than 3 months old so I dont think that we would have a lot of biofilm build up yet.

So tomorrow as its supposed to be above freezing (we are in Canada, was -34c 2 weeks ago) we will drain, clean and refill and then give Bromine a spin.  Can't be any worse than what we have now (I hope)

    I hear ya.  I started with bromine and had the same reaction...... rash that looked allot like heat rash and only on my chest. I'm the only one out of 3  of use that use the tub that got any kind of rash. 

     First it sounded like there was to much cya in the water from the granular bromine i was using. So i drained refilled started over with pucks of bromine.  Same thing rash never went away.  Another couple weeks pass and i said it's not getting any better so a nice day came along ( i live in Canada a well) so i drained again.  Started on trichlor pucks used that for around 2 weeks rash went away.  Then i started reading that trichlor has cya in it as well so i switched to bleach.  Works great. Longest time between water changes yet.... got tub end of Oct.  We are now 5 weeks on same water.  Water looks and feels great still.  We do use the tub atleast once a day usually twice.

[bud16415]

thanks for the tips, I did wonder about the moisturizing thing, but what seems odd is with chlorine if I am in the tub for only 30 to 40 mins i get a reaction.  its similar to what folks call hot tub rash but it only affects me not the others in the tub.  The tub is less than 3 months old so I dont think that we would have a lot of biofilm build up yet.

So tomorrow as its supposed to be above freezing (we are in Canada, was -34c 2 weeks ago) we will drain, clean and refill and then give Bromine a spin.  Can't be any worse than what we have now (I hope)

    I hear ya.  I started with bromine and had the same reaction...... rash that looked allot like heat rash and only on my chest. I'm the only one out of 3  of use that use the tub that got any kind of rash. 

     First it sounded like there was to much cya in the water from the granular bromine i was using. So i drained refilled started over with pucks of bromine.  Same thing rash never went away.  Another couple weeks pass and i said it's not getting any better so a nice day came along ( i live in Canada a well) so i drained again.  Started on trichlor pucks used that for around 2 weeks rash went away.  Then i started reading that trichlor has cya in it as well so i switched to bleach.  Works great. Longest time between water changes yet.... got tub end of Oct.  We are now 5 weeks on same water.  Water looks and feels great still.  We do use the tub atleast once a day usually twice.

Trichlor is much to fast acting for the hot water in a tub and is designed for swimming pools that are much cooler. Dichlor is a better choice and it does have stabilizer in it and it slows the action of the chlorine. In a pool sunlight breakes down the stabilizer and it has to be replaced. So continued use of dichlor as the spa is covered and gets no sunlight stabilizer / cya will build and get to high.

That’s the reason I start off with dichlor and watch the stabilizer level and when mine gets to 50ppm I then switch over to regular bleach like you use.

This method has worked really well for me.     

[Snowjob]

as an update,

I drained and refilled, now using Bromine in a floater.
I did do the 2 oz pack of Sodium Bromide to 'build the bank' and everything reacted as expected.

BUT

the bumps / rash still happens.  Probably best described as small itchy raised bumps on back of ankles, top of arms, top of shoulders.  They are not 'i am gong to jump of a ledge' itchy, but they do itch, so you scratch.  This is not Hot tub folliculitis - something else is going on.

I have also tried a boat load of moisturizer but that did not help.

I am now wondering if I am having a reaction to MPS Chlorine free shock - I see there is some growing reports of MPS bothering particularly middle aged men.

So  I am going to try switching to normal laundry bleach as the shock.

Q: - Does anyone know if this means I have to drain and refill or can I simply stop using the MPS and start using the laundry bleach?  I have found some articles that say "plain, unscented laundry bleach (5.25%) for shocking a bromine spa. 1 cup per 250-300 gallons is about right"

thanks

[bud16415]

You don’t have to drain the tub to switch to bleach for shocking. I use bleach half the time as sanitizer it is just a lower dose than you use to shock. After shocking if I remember right you want between 5 and 10 times the normal level when you shock that way. 

[Livefast]

Is there any reason that you don't want to use chlorine? I know i wanted to use bromine as well but with the itch and bumps that just wouldn't go away i made the choice to switch.  No more rash!! I was nervous of using mps sock as well so i held off shocking tub for 3 weeks.  When we did shock still no rash so we are all clear now.

[Snowjob]

i started with Chlorine and then just switched to Bromine hoping that would solve the itch / bumps...it did not.

I am wondering about our use case.

The tub is at a cottage in northern ontario Canada.  We only use it on Fri and Sat night every 2 weeks, for at most 2 hours a time.  Water temp is 101 or 102.  When we get there on a Friday night the levels have been good.  The floater is just about empty. PH and TA are in the ok zones.

We use it on Friday night, shock it, the levels spike, and by saturday night the levels of Bromine LOOK like they are back down.  I am using test strips to check. 

On Saturday (so between the Friday night soak and the Saturday Night soak) during the day I normally dump a cap of the jacuzzi Ultra Spa Blue stuff in (smells like baby powder), and 45 ml of the Jacuzzi stain and scale solution, then we use it again several hours later on Saturday night 

so
maybe the levels are not down enough between the shock on Friday night and Saturday, maybe I should Shock on Sunday before we leave to go home.
maybe I have a reaction to the MPS Jacuzzi Brand Shock
maybe I have a reaction to the 'ultra spa' blue stuff that smells like baby powder - will stop using that
maybe I have a reaction to the 'Stain and Scale' stuff

So I am going to try using normal bleach for a shock and stop using MPS, will also stop with the stain & scale and will stop with the ultra spa, and see what happens

the itch and bumps go away after about 4 days.  But 4 days of itch for every 2 hours of tub use was not what I signed up for

thanks for any tips

[bradleyabell]

Google "Hot tub folliculitis".  Does your skin look like that? 

I had that happen to me once after being in the tub for over an hour and the bromine level had dropped to 0 while in the tub.  There were 4 of us and 1 person was a carrier and it spread like wildfire in the tub.  I shocked it good and have been doing a much better job of checking bromine levels before getting in the tub and haven't had any issues since.

[Snowjob]

I looked at Hot tub folliculitis, but its definitely not that.
And I got the bumps after a soak in a freshly cleaned and filled tub.