Hot Tub Pricing Guide(s)?

[wondertubs]

Looking at the Caldera Spa site, they give price ranges for "Value-Priced Hot Tubs", among others. I'm wondering about this category in particular, excluding entry-level (rotationally-molded) and premium or luxury models. Theirs are said to start at $4000.

So who else makes value priced hot tubs, which start around there, and are distributed from dealers?  Most manufacturers I've found don't give an indication of price ranges, even though they have similar categories as well. I gather this may be because many start at $5500 or more (from what I've read on forums).  I know there are others online-only that start lower, so I don't consider $4000 to be cheap, or an indication that one is cheaply made either (especially if sold at a dealer of various spas). 

Mostly I'm looking at the smaller ones (less than 32" in height), and it seems that once you get down to 3 seats, they don't go proportionately lower in price for fewer seats, gallons, or amount of materials based on their dimensions.  I was initially surprised that the ones shaped like a bathtub were said to cost as much or more than some four seaters.  I guess they figure that if you want one of those, then you need one of those and nothing larger, or that people could just get several small ones... anyone have a backup spa?  They all seem to get mixed reviews on service issues, and look about the same, other than having special jets that may break more often (so I don't see that as an upgrade necessarily). Of course warranties are part of the picture between price ranges, and that's okay with me, since they all break down eventually (I don't get the impresson that quality varies greatly for a given company throughout their models).

On the one hand people say hot tubs are a luxury, and on the other, they're separated into categories based on value, in which "luxury" is the top of the line, so who (else) actually has "value" spas that also make a luxury line?

[castletonia]

Whatever the listed price is, is irrelevant because the dealer sets their price and it will always be under the  MSRP.  Keep in mind that MSRP's either don't exist on many brands or are inflated on all and some more than others.  As for quality entry level spas, Caldera Vacanza series, Hot Spring Hot Spot, Bullfrog x-series, Marquis Celebrity, Jacuzzi J200, Sundance 600, Artesian South Seas, etc.  Every quality manufacturer has entry level spas.  You also have Nordic and Viking, which are basic entry level spas, but they keep it simple and use pretty good components.  They are an upgrade over roto molded spas.

When searching strictly on price, consider this.  When I sell a hot tub, the "listed" price from the manufacturer is for the hot tub and cover, everything else is technically extra.  From a wholesale cost standpoint, I have a $200 cost difference between my cheapest step and most expensive step and $140 difference from my cheapest cover lift to most expensive cover lift.  I'm including chemical which depending on whats included, can fluctuate by another $50.  My added cost can now vary by as much as $400, just for the basic accessories.  I can't have one set price for each hot tub when each situation may require different accessories.

I do sell Caldera and Hot Spring and I am in Wisconsin.  My freight cost per hot tub can vary from about $250 per unit upwards of $450 depending on the quantity of that order.  Then we are going to deliver the hot tub to your backyard.  I need anywhere from 2-4 guys which all have wages to be paid.  If you live close to my store vs an hour away is another unknown cost to me because gas and time cost money.  I am also a servicing retailer, with a tech that has 20+ years experience who makes good money vs one of my competitors who has no service and use a 3rd party which is no cost to them. 

What I am saying is there are a lot of variables that affect pricing.  None of which even considers the actual overhead cost and what % profit the business needs to make money and stay in business.  What I sell the Aventine for in Wisconsin will be different than someone in New York and California due to the above cost variances.  And, regardless of what I sell for, does not mean any other dealer has to sell for that price.

Regarding small spas, they are never proportionately priced lower than their larger equivalents.  Yes they are smaller and usually have less jets and sometimes fewer pumps, but the material cost is not that much different, the time and labor to make is not that much less, freight and other variables are really no different and every manufacturer knows they will sell at a lower volume, so if you can't make your money on volume, you make it on profit margins.  I'm not saying they price gouge, but 7'x7' spas that seat 5-6 people probably outsell 5'x7' 3 person spas by 10-1, at least in my market they do.  More competition means more competitive pricing.

Avoid internet only items.  There is a reason they are online only and it's not because you are getting a better deal, its because no retailer wants that product either due to low quality, poor manufacturer support or other reasons.  Visit your local dealers and see what is available locally to you.  Get a feel for who is reputable and who will be there after the sale.  Then you can narrow down the choices you have available. 

[wondertubs]

Whatever the listed price is, is irrelevant because the dealer sets their price and it will always be under the  MSRP.  Keep in mind that MSRP's either don't exist on many brands or are inflated on all and some more than others.

Well, I don't want to keep such a contradiction in terms in mind.  Are you saying that Caldera inflated their price ranges though?  Anyway, I don't look forward to wheeling and dealing at all, it would be nice have price ranges, so that neither of us had to waste each others time with that to begin with.  I appreciate your feedback however.  It simply isn't customary in general, compared to looking at new cars for example.

[Hottubguy]

Whatever the listed price is, is irrelevant because the dealer sets their price and it will always be under the  MSRP.  Keep in mind that MSRP's either don't exist on many brands or are inflated on all and some more than others.

Well, I don't want to keep such a contradiction in terms in mind.  Are you saying that Caldera inflated their price ranges though?

Caldera MSRP range from $6,099 for the Aventine up to $19,899 for the Cantabria. The price chart you saw is about what you will see those tubs.  They are pretty upfront on that blog post. Most dealers will be somewhere around $5k for the Aventine depending on options and around 15k for the Cantabria depending on options. There is a huge difference therapy, ease of use on controllers, better pc boards and better overall jetting on a vacanza Series Caldera versus a Utopia Series Caldera. The same could be said for all the major respected manufacturers.

[wondertubs]

Caldera MSRP range from $6,099 for the Aventine up to $19,899 for the Cantabria. The price chart you saw is about what you will see those tubs.  They are pretty upfront on that blog post. Most dealers will be somewhere around $5k for the Aventine depending on options and around 15k for the Cantabria depending on options. There is a huge difference therapy, ease of use on controllers, better pc boards and better overall jetting on a vacanza Series Caldera versus a Utopia Series Caldera. The same could be said for all the major respected manufacturers.

So within that range, $4000 was not for the Aventine? The rest appear to be much larger.  Or are the options not optional?

[Hottubguy]

I wouldn’t sell it that low. Maybe if you bought the tub and cover only and picked it up yourself you could find someone to sell it to you for 4K. That wasn’t so much a guide on just a Caldera Tubs but more on all hot tubs in general.

[wondertubs]

I wouldn’t sell it that low. Maybe if you bought the tub and cover only and picked it up yourself you could find someone to sell it to you for 4K. That wasn’t so much a guide on just a Caldera Tubs but more on all hot tubs in general.

Are you kidding?

[Hottubguy]

I wouldn’t sell it that low. Maybe if you bought the tub and cover only and picked it up yourself you could find someone to sell it to you for 4K. That wasn’t so much a guide on just a Caldera Tubs but more on all hot tubs in general.

Are you kidding?

Maybe the tub is 4k, steps are 199, chemical kit another $100, delivery another $300-$400. None of that other stuff is free to the dealer. That's why you price it into the price of the tub. I sell that tub with steps, delivery and chemical kit for $4999. Worst value is on the smaller tubs like that. Freight is still the same, step still costs same, same chemical kit. Delivery might be 3 guys instead of 4

[castletonia]

Every manufacturer inflates their MSRP to an extent.  The reputable manufacturers not so much.  Caldera is a reputable manufacturer.  To be more direct, my original point should have been taken as this: Every hot tub manufacturer has multiple lines of spas at varying price points.  MSRP is irrelevant because you cannot find posted MSRP on most brands and the dealer sets the price based on their cost of the hot tub and accessories but also their cost of doing business and what the local market allows.  Most dealers are out to make business sustaining profits, not screw the customer. 

The only options that matter is whats available to you locally and at the prices your dealers offer.  This forum is great for information and to encourage an educated consumer.  We are not selling to you, just providing our time and knowledge.

As for the Aventine, my bottom is $4699 + tax and that includes hot tub, cover, basic step, chemical, and local delivery.  I'm going to want cash/check at that price since credit card will cost me at least $100 in processing fees.  There are costs associated with everything that goes along with any hot tub that is above and beyond the cost of the hot tub which is what an MSRP includes.  Hottubguy is also on the east coast so his freight costs are even more because Caldera ships from the west coast.

This is not the auto industry and cars don't sell at MSRP.  There is a reason there are always rebates and sales.  If you don't want to negotiate, that fine.  Look up your local options, find a few hot tubs that may interest you.  Visit each dealer and politely inform them that you want their one and only best price.  If it's meant to be then its meant to be.  When a dealer will let you walk away, then you know it's their lowest price.  You can take it or leave it. 

Non-negotiated pricing only works if everyone does it.  I have tried it in the past and it is always the same result.  My competitors all have negotiable prices.  I don't.  The customer doesn't know this and gets upset when I am firm and the guy down the road drops $500 - $2000 off his price.  Customer sees big savings and many times that's all they see.  I was honest, nice, had an equal or better product.  What I didn't have was the "SALE" so they bought where they thought they were getting the best deal.  And unlike the auto industry, there is not the wealth on reputable online facts, knowledge, information on hot tubs like there is cars.

[wondertubs]

Someone online is saying they sell those for $2,699 less than MSRP (or $3400 it seems). But while I understand that there could be differences in options and services, dealers shouldn't be contradicting the manufacturer on this one, at least. As if they put those ranges out there just to make themselves look bad... all be it in a shiny way.   

Otherwise, if they were really throwing in every tub other than their own into that range, then it should have started at $2200 for something like the Hudson Bay spas, I suppose.  Or they want the sticker shock to be a mere $1000 more than expected (just to make you go look, and say well shit)!

[Hottubguy]

Someone online is saying they sell those for $2,699 less than MSRP (or $3400 it seems). But while I understand that there could be differences in options and services, dealers shouldn't be contradicting the manufacturer on this one, at least. As if they put those ranges out there just to make themselves look bad... all be it in a shiny way.   

Otherwise, if they were really throwing in every tub other than their own into that range, then it should have started at $2200 for something like the Hudson Bay spas, I suppose.  Or they want the sticker shock to be a mere $1000 more than expected (just to make you go look, and say well shit)!

How is it contradicting the manufacturer?  If you want the tub and cover come pick it up for 4000. The rest of that stuff is extra. You would have to be a idiot for selling that tub for &3400. As a business owner I give very competitive pricing but I also have 23 employees that need to get paid. Trucks that need to be bought, rent that needs to be paid and all other kinds of expenses. If I didn't feel like making money I would sit T home everyday rather then working 70-80 a week

[wondertubs]

Yeah, I'd pick something smallish up myself for $1000, as long as they didn't say it voided the warranty, otherwise I think the delivery service is included in the warranty.  Although, you initially said that maybe someone else would sell it for what the manufacturer suggested its starting price was, so it's at least a contradiction of contexts there. But I'm not trying to argue, just looking at tubs (no big deal).

[Hottubguy]

Yeah, I'd pick something smallish up myself for $1000, as long as they didn't say it voided the warranty, otherwise I think the delivery service is included in the warranty.  Although, you initially said that maybe someone else would sell it for what the manufacturer suggested its starting price was, so it's at least a contradiction of contexts there. But I'm not trying to argue, just looking at tubs (no big deal).

Warranty has nothing to do with delivery. If someone waved 4000 at me and was picking it up and I didn’t have to include anything else I might entertain it if it was something in stock that I had for a bit. I’ve had a few people pick that tub up and I think I’ve sold it for 4400-4500 that way before. Problem with pricing is dealer A might buy tubs a truckload at a time. You save on freight and upfront pric8ng that way. Dealer B buys tubs as he’s sold them. The beginning costs are different so naturally there would be a different number each dealer needs to sell for. Even when I purchase by the truckload I’m still paying $425 per spa in shipping only. Someone on the west coast is paying half that. That why Hot tub pricing is all over the map. Plus we have to cover the tubs 8n the field for the warranty. Anybody in the business knows doing warranty work is a losing proposition. I pay my employees more then I get back on warranty claims. I carry Calder, Marquis and Nordic. One of the main reasons I carry those brands is due to the fact that there are very few warranty claims.

[wondertubs]

I don't see that it's all over the map, because it isn't even on the map, other than mostly online tubs which may be half as much (or so, tax free with free delivery), so it seems preposterous when an expectation of double that for dealer costs on a similar tub (not necessarily more than twice as good) is considered a pipe dream.  To say well shipping costs a couple hundred more coast to coast doesn't account for a huge difference, so it shouldn't be inconceivable to give price ranges within a couple hundred between dealers nation wide, which I think is what Caldera did with their buying guide, and dealers upping the price of little tubs to cover the discounts on larger ones seems to be a bit over the top.  The value tubs don't have much of a warranty, and I'd rather not pay for someone elses better warranty in the price of those. It's like, meet me halfway... not just get me in the door to say it costs halfway more. Anyway, I didn't make this stuff up, and if they want me to think there are value models out there, I'm looking for value, naturally. If it isn't true, oh well (I'm not redefining value as luxury because someone throws the word "sale" out there on whatever else). Like I said, those so-called value models are already about twice as much as something with similar components and materials (which could be found somewhere), based on the one buying guide, so it would seem fair to me for the extra convenience and perhaps quality, but not as a decoy so that dealers could shoot my expectations down, as it were—I thought I was being just as generous as they were being upfront, for considering one that costs more locally, but only within reason (of a reasonablly better value at $4000 than those around $2000), and I'm not getting reasons other than why any size tub, especially a small one, should cost much much more than the connotations of value-pricing at the dealer level. Maybe I'll be met halfway though, except for there not being price ranges for the most part, which indicates that it's less likely.

[Hottubguy]

I don't see that it's all over the map, because it isn't even on the map, other than mostly online-only tubs which may be half as much (or so, tax free with free delivery), so it seems preposterous when an expectation of double that for dealer costs on a similar tub (not necessarily more than twice as good) is considered a pipe dream.  To say well shipping costs a couple hundred more coast to coast doesn't account for a huge difference, so it shouldn't be inconceivable to give price ranges within a couple hundred between dealers nation wide, which I think is what Caldera did with their buying guide, and dealers upping the price of little tubs to cover the discounts on larger ones seems to be a bit over the top.  The value tubs don't have much of a warranty, and I'd rather not pay for someone elses better warranty in the price of those. It's like, meet me halfway... not just get me in the door to say it costs halfway more. Anyway, I didn't make this stuff up, and if they want me to think there are value models out there, I'm looking for value, naturally. If it isn't true, oh well (I'm not redefining value as luxury because someone throws the word "sale" out there on whatever else). Like I said, those so-called value models are already about twice as much as something with similar components and materials (which could be found somewhere), based on the one buying guide, so it would seem fair to me for the extra convenience and perhaps quality, but not as a decoy so that dealers could shoot my expectations down, as it were—I thought I was being just as generous as they were being upfront, for considering one that costs more locally, but only within reason (of a reasonablly better value at $4000 than those around $2000), and I'm not getting reasons other than why any size tub, especially a small one, should cost much much more than the connotations of value-pricing at the dealer level. Maybe I'll be met halfway though, except for there not being price ranges for the most part, which indicates that it's less likely.

That buying guide is for hot tubs in general. Not caldera Spas. That's the biggest point you are missing