What makes a top brand?

[silversun]

I see a lot of people on this forum throw around the term 'top brand'. I'm wondering, is there a universally agreed upon criteria for a top brand? I see people rattle off the likes of Jacuzzi, Hot Springs, Marquis, etc.

I'm clear on why these brands are superior to costo / home depot brands, but what separates them from the "second tier" brands like, for example, Saratoga?

If I had to guess, I don't think there's too much between the top brands and the second tier. Am I close to say it's mostly about (and maybe even, in this order) revenue, marketing budget, dealer network, quality, innovation. 

Those are not completely representative of the consumers interest. I'm hopeful that brands could be ranked by more 'consumer friendly' metrics like customer satisfaction, warranty claims, total cost of ownership, quality, average tub lifespan, etc.

I don't think the two criteria have to be mutually exclusive (eg, the hot tub manufacturer with the highest revenue may also happen to make the best hot tub).

but I'm really interested to hear the perspective from others.

[Tman122]

I see a lot of people on this forum throw around the term 'top brand'. I'm wondering, is there a universally agreed upon criteria for a top brand? I see people rattle off the likes of Jacuzzi, Hot Springs, Marquis, etc.

I'm clear on why these brands are superior to costo / home depot brands, but what separates them from the "second tier" brands like, for example, Saratoga?

If I had to guess, I don't think there's too much between the top brands and the second tier. Am I close to say it's mostly about (and maybe even, in this order) revenue, marketing budget, dealer network, quality, innovation. 

Those are not completely representative of the consumers interest. I'm hopeful that brands could be ranked by more 'consumer friendly' metrics like customer satisfaction, warranty claims, total cost of ownership, quality, average tub lifespan, etc.

I don't think the two criteria have to be mutually exclusive (eg, the hot tub manufacturer with the highest revenue may also happen to make the best hot tub).

but I'm really interested to hear the perspective from others.

Quality and innovation first, then marketing, dealer network and revenue on that end.

And you missed a very important part on the other end. Reputation. And reputations are born, then fostered by consumers and repair people. Not dealers or manufacturers. How long should a tub last? How much repair service is normal during it's first 5 years? Second?? Third??? Fourth?

[castletonia]

One of Saratoga's biggest issues is they are a small company.  Not many people outside of the east coast have ever even heard of them.  I sold them years ago and they were a great company to deal with and made a solid product.

Many times when brands are referred to as "top tier" it is as much about the integrity and reputation of the company as it is the product itself.  I have sold Marquis and currently sell Hot Spring and Caldera.  I see next to zero quality control issues with Watkins and Marquis compared to what I saw with brands considered less than top tier such as Cal Spas, Dynasty, Clearwater, Coast, even Saratoga.  I see better quality materials used.  It's obvious to me there is more money spent on R&D than lesser brands.  They take better care of the dealer and customer when there are issues.  Also, when you see 20+ year old hot tubs, they are typically your better quality brands.

From a dealer perspective, I have sold spas for almost 17 years and there was a time at a previous employer where all we sold were mid to lower end spas.  I know for a fact that many of those spas have either had almost all mechanical components replaced or have been retired completely and these are spas that are no more than 12 years old and some as new as 5 years.  I have seen Hot Spring and Marquis that are 20 years old and still structurally sound and still with original parts.

The line is probably more blurred today because there are what I consider low quality spas that look nice and since the hot tub industry is not the most transparent, it is difficult for the average consumer to know the truth.

[d00nut]

Great question(s)!

I can speak from a dealer standpoint.  A great dealer would consider very carefully about what brand to represent, because it would reflect their reputation.  I continuely tell people that they try decide two things:

1.  What to buy
2.  Who to buy it from

The dealer does the same thing every year.  However, they make the decision anywhere from 20 times a year, to 500 (depending on the dealer.)

Obviously, having marketing support is a somewhat big deal.  However, most I honest feel like having access to photos and such and have myself create marketing materials does more than anything any manufacturer does.  It's more of if the provide me the tools to be successful.

I choose to represent the brands I do (Hot Spring, Caldera, Bullfrog, FF, Endless) because they meet a minimum criteria:

• Great Quality  (warranty rate stays between the 2-3% mark)
• Great Training (part of the dealer network)  (Sales & Service training, which is huge for after the sale support)
• Innovation... I believe that if you ain't moving forward... then your falling behind.  (Innovation can mean hot tub innovation, or just new ideas for the industry, which to me is huge as one of the younger people in this sea of old.)
• Average Tub Life Span.  At this point, Hot Spring easily wins for me.  Bullfrog is to young to see, but their tubs seem to be absolutely on par with Hot Spring, if not even beyond in initial quality.  Hot Spring just has the track record of supporting their spas the longest, and it lasting the longest.
• Customer Service.  I can't remember who says this, but someone on this forum always says to support your dealer so they can support you.  I feel the same from the manufacturer point.  Watkins has been there for me, from the terrible times to the good times, and they seem to come through.  Of course, their budget is bigger than anyone else... which helps in supporting me.  I can't tell you how many times they go above and beyond to take care of a customer.  I had a customer with a minor leak in the filter bucket, which is a relatively easy fix (an Envoy.)  However, because they were 2+hours away from me, Customer service and warranty worked together and gave me a brand new spa to just swap out for him.  No one else would do that  (Bullfrog is still fairly small, and I am working on that relationship with them...)

Now I have dealt with MAAX and Jacuzzi as well.  Why don't I sell them anymore?  Well... MAAX for one makes a good hot tub, but holy smokes... they have no idea what parts of theirs go in what hot tubs.  I tried to order a simple cover and replacement grab bar for one of their swim spas 2 years ago.  They dealer support couldn't find it.  I had to call my rep, and he got back to me 3 weeks later with the special part numbers that don't exist on their online ordering portal.  Good product (a bit generic and not as energy efficient) but terrible support.

Jacuzzi is a weird duck for me.  I like the product a lot.  Their panels seem to warp quite a bit in the Arizona sun though.  However, they have gotten progressively worse in their customer service and warranty payouts, which is why we dropped them.  At one point, they were just as good as Watkins, but with the management leaving for Bullfrog, it seems like their service part got thrown out the window.

Everybody is loyal to their brands, for they should believe in what they sell.  I love my brands (products) but I'm not IN Love.  If something changes, I'll look what is out there, but they need to hit my requirements I just listed out.

[Sam]

Good post doonut.  I concur with pretty much everything you said. Reputation comes from a variety of factors but most of the industry people (who are being honest) agree on the top tier companies due to their reputations.  Hot Spring, Marquis, Bullfrog, Artesian, etc... Some companies like Jacuzzi/Sundance are in flux


There are just some companies that are clearly lower quality like Cal Spa and Master Spa, both of which also condone shady business practices such as refusing to honor warranty claims and blaming it on water chemistry, or condoning dishonest road show dealers, cutting corners, etc.

[hottubdan]

From dealer perspective, the support of the manufacturer is key.  How di they support the dealer and, more important, the end user.

Too subtle for the end user, customer.

[CHAR-brew]

One of Saratoga's biggest issues is they are a small company.  Not many people outside of the east coast have ever even heard of them.  I sold them years ago and they were a great company to deal with and made a solid product.

Many times when brands are referred to as "top tier" it is as much about the integrity and reputation of the company as it is the product itself.  I have sold Marquis and currently sell Hot Spring and Caldera.  I see next to zero quality control issues with Watkins and Marquis compared to what I saw with brands considered less than top tier such as Cal Spas, Dynasty, Clearwater, Coast, even Saratoga.  I see better quality materials used.  It's obvious to me there is more money spent on R&D than lesser brands.  They take better care of the dealer and customer when there are issues.  Also, when you see 20+ year old hot tubs, they are typically your better quality brands.

From a dealer perspective, I have sold spas for almost 17 years and there was a time at a previous employer where all we sold were mid to lower end spas.  I know for a fact that many of those spas have either had almost all mechanical components replaced or have been retired completely and these are spas that are no more than 12 years old and some as new as 5 years.  I have seen Hot Spring and Marquis that are 20 years old and still structurally sound and still with original parts.

The line is probably more blurred today because there are what I consider low quality spas that look nice and since the hot tub industry is not the most transparent, it is difficult for the average consumer to know the truth.

You stated you are a dealer for both hot springs and caldera. I am looking at a caldera marino or hot spring - hot spot relay. I am looking at two different dealers. Since you sell both, which brand to recommend more and why?

[silversun]

Jacuzzi is a weird duck for me.  I like the product a lot.  Their panels seem to warp quite a bit in the Arizona sun though.  However, they have gotten progressively worse in their customer service and warranty payouts, which is why we dropped them.  At one point, they were just as good as Watkins, but with the management leaving for Bullfrog, it seems like their service part got thrown out the window.

great info!! thanks!

when you say Jacuzzi have gotten worse in their warranty payouts, does this mean the product quality is going downhill and they have to make more warranty payouts, or they're becoming less willing to pay out warranty claims?

[castletonia]

One of Saratoga's biggest issues is they are a small company.  Not many people outside of the east coast have ever even heard of them.  I sold them years ago and they were a great company to deal with and made a solid product.

Many times when brands are referred to as "top tier" it is as much about the integrity and reputation of the company as it is the product itself.  I have sold Marquis and currently sell Hot Spring and Caldera.  I see next to zero quality control issues with Watkins and Marquis compared to what I saw with brands considered less than top tier such as Cal Spas, Dynasty, Clearwater, Coast, even Saratoga.  I see better quality materials used.  It's obvious to me there is more money spent on R&D than lesser brands.  They take better care of the dealer and customer when there are issues.  Also, when you see 20+ year old hot tubs, they are typically your better quality brands.

From a dealer perspective, I have sold spas for almost 17 years and there was a time at a previous employer where all we sold were mid to lower end spas.  I know for a fact that many of those spas have either had almost all mechanical components replaced or have been retired completely and these are spas that are no more than 12 years old and some as new as 5 years.  I have seen Hot Spring and Marquis that are 20 years old and still structurally sound and still with original parts.

The line is probably more blurred today because there are what I consider low quality spas that look nice and since the hot tub industry is not the most transparent, it is difficult for the average consumer to know the truth.

You stated you are a dealer for both hot springs and caldera. I am looking at a caldera marino or hot spring - hot spot relay. I am looking at two different dealers. Since you sell both, which brand to recommend more and why?

There is no quality difference between a Marino or Relay.  I choose to floor the Caldera Vacanza series instead of the Hot Spring Hot Spot for 3 reasons.  1) I like the inline sanitation system that is on the Caldera (Hot Spring does not do this) 2) I sell a good amount of spas in the Midnight Canyon color (Hot Spring does not offer) and 3) I like the look of the Caldera cabinet better.  If none of my reasons make any difference to you, then go with the more reputable dealer and / or the one with the lower price.

[The Wizard of Spas]

I like this thread b/c: 

1.  Worked for a dealer for 15 years (straight out of high school and also after finishing college) and it was - As others have posted - about dealer support.  We can all spin a sale.  But we can also identify overall what brands tend to perform better.  But dealer support will make you want to either sell the brand or drop a brand.  I had a few brands that I loved until dealer support made representing them untenable.  So I switched and was flabbergasted at what great company support will do for a retailer.

2.  I now work for a spa manufacturer.  This helps me work with the owners to show them *HOW* to help dealers, what dealers need and want to hear, and how to sell our product, especially against local competition.  Seeing how we build our tubs, *why* we build our tubs the way we do, why we choose the parts and choose our dealers, etc, is fascinating in itself. 

I am sure that my fascination at working for a manufacturer is the same as others on here who may work for a manufacturer (though I am sure this place is mainly dealers and customers).  I offer the above info knowing that most on here look down on people who post from a manufacturer as it sounds like a sales pitch.  But this is more of a comment on the generalities of the industry. 

Now that I outted myself as now working for a manufacturer, please don't throw rocks at me!