Grandee- good or bad $ and performance?

[Chas]

I'm curious what you didn't prefer about the Envoy?

I'm also interested in a Hot Springs, considering the Envoy, but have also been warned about the shell issues, problems with the moto-massage, among other things.

There have no 'shell issues' for many years.  HotSpring wouldn't enjoy the leadership position they do if they had on-going issues with shell or structure reliability. There may be some repairmen or competitive dealers out there who would like to see HotSpring take a hit in this regard, but there really is no issue.

I don't know what to make of it all, but perhaps the helpful folks on this site will help us sort this out. Hopefully this doesn't stir things up too much but,

I was told:

HS can't fiberglass their shells due to EPA regulations where they are located

That info is in error. It's actually almost funny, since they do in fact fiberglass-reinforce many parts, such as the siding on the Solana line, and all the shells in the Caldera and Hot Spot lines. The motor compartment boxes were fiberglass for years. These parts may very well represent more than the entire output of most other makers.

so they use a high density foam that is not nearly as strong, thus more prone to crack.

They use high density foam only as the first layer in a a system of multi-layer foam that forms an engineered system that is very strong. It also supports the shell and plumbing in a very even manner that tends to avoid problems like cracks.

The cracks are not only problems astehtically, but will leak.

The fact is, if a HotSpring shell cracks, it will most likely leak. That much is true. The rest of the story is that a HotSpring shell is no more nor less likely to crack than any other type of construction. It is designed to do exactly what it does: hold water. It does. And does well.

Keep in mind that HotSpring sells more spas than any other maker - you may very well hear from a repairman who has fixed some cracked HotSpring tubs. Fine. That is more a statement about how many HotSpring tubs are in his area than a statement about some sort of 'cracking issue,'

BTW, I have not heard any of this from a HS owner yet.

No, you heard this from somebody who sells Marquis - and even if they used to sell HS, I find it doesn't make sense to take info from a competitor.

Also: I 've been told about problems with their Everwood cabinets fading. The HS dealer said that they sell a product (Everwood Stain Kit) to maintain the cabinet. I'm not sure if other cabinets need this maintainance as well. Also was told that the panels have peeled in the sun.

Wow - this is out of date info. Yes, there exists a stain kit for the plastic siding, but I have yet to sell one. It is handy for people who have extreme exposure or staining from sprinklers or other unusual situations. The first-generation siding did fade, and it was glued into a solid envelope so that repairs were tough. But that was many years ago and we are on the third generation of siding.

This is a great siding that can be trouble-free for many many years. The fact that we offer a stain kit, and that some people choose to touch up the stuff hardly means that it's suddenly in the same leaque as wood, or other lesser plastics. There are a lot of very durable non-wood sidings out there, wouldn't you rather have one supported by the biggest tub maker in the world, with the added support of touch-up stain and so forth?

Been told that HS has as many or more problems with their spas than anyone out there

No, HotSpring has a lower failure rate than most other brands. It is in the low single-digit percentages, and even though this may represent a large NUMBER of spas, it represents a tiny fraction of the whole.

and that the maintenance cost will be higher over time due to the high cost of replacement parts.

Replacement parts that most people buy are: filters and covers. These are available in all the same places as filters and covers for other spas, at the same prices. The one difference is that there are many makers whose single filter can cost almost as much as our four or five.

The Moto Massage is about $70 - and is covered by a five-year warranty on a new tub, and a one-year parts warranty when you buy a replacement.

I've also been told repeatedly by many many folks, including HS owners, that HS takes really good care of their customers, so not to worry and get the spa you like best.[/quote True. As a dealer since 1985 I can attest to the fact that they cover me well, and they cover you well.

I think the Grandee is a great spa, and sometimes I think we can overanalyze these choices. This forum provides us with much great info, but remember, you've got a great dealership to work with, which IMO means alot as well.  

[Tubnerd]

I think your price of $8200.00 for the Grandee sounds great!  I can't even remember the base price we got from our HS dealer for the Grandee but I know we wanted pearl (more expensive!), ozonator-$300, cover, and cover lifter-$300, and the total for all that including 6% sales tax was $9600-$9700 (Can't remember exactly but they said that was the best they could do and we decided we could do better elsewhere!).

I too became a little concerned about the Grandee hp but later realized that was not a legitimate concern.  We actually tested the Envoy and loved the moto-massage but did not like the fit of the lounger.  I know we would have bought the Grandee if the price had been more reasonable.  We 'settled' for a Jacuzzi Premium J-375 and couldn't be happier!  

If your dealer is good and the price is good, I don't think you can go wrong with the Grandee!

[IonHeaven]

Perk1

Quote: "Are you trying to be the new 'D&C'?"

No, actually its not like that at all. Please just bear with me a little while longer.

Chas

Thanks for your response. Maybe you can let us know about what HS philosophy is concerning all the changes made in the past few years that Stuart mentioned? What kind of changes? I know the Envoy is a totally new design and I love it....I seem to remember the lounge was just the right size for me. Anyway, I'm just curious. Thanks again.

IonHeaven

[OhWhyNot]

"I'm curious what you didn't prefer about the Envoy?"

- It was the way the seats were arranged as a result of the lounger and captain seat, mostly.  The two seats next to the lounger seat seemed a little close for us, and the different directions faced by the lounger and captain's chair didn't seem as 'sociable' as we wanted it to feel.  In the Grandee, we were more or less sitting in a circle, and we preferred that.   Also, the Grandee is a bit deeper than the Envoy, and I liked that a lot.  It was just easier for us to move about freely in the Grandee.  

"...where do you call home? Sometimes there are dealerships nearby you may not have realized"

- Maine.  There is another dealer in the next state, about an hour away, but I hesitate to work with a dealer so far away, especially when the one closer to home seems so terrific.


Shopping Update:
Went to the Sundance dealer this afternoon to check out the Optima.  According to the note on his door he has closed the store while bringing his kids to college, due back in town on the 24th.  So no luck there.

Went next to the Jacuzzi (according to their ad in the yellow pages) dealer, who didn't have a Jacuzzi in sight.  We found Bullfrogs instead, about 4 of them surrounded by a world of woodstoves.  We were greeted and invited to look around, take literature, and ask any questions.  I asked about wet testing, and he said 'sure, just call ahead and set up a time', which was fine.  I neglected to ask if it could be after hours, and it would have to be, as there is no way the four of us could comfortably test that tub in front of all the stoves and people shopping for stoves.  There's a busy sales counter about 25 feet away, no towels or robes in sight.  It didn't look inviting at all.  But I have to admit I am intrigued by the design concepts behind the Bullfrog, and the lifetime warranty (jet pack plumbing and shell) is hard not to notice.  Is there something to their idea about reducing the plumbing and number of holes in the shell?  Do they have much of a track record?

At this point we are really leaning towards the Grandee, but we'll make a point to wet test the Optima before making the final decision.  That is, of course, providing the college-bound dealer has one in his showroom!

Thanks for the tip about wet testing a second time!  The HS place was fairly lively when we went the first time, and I felt that the staff was also doing us a courtesy by giving us our space as we went from tub to tub.  I'm sure they wouldn't mind us showing up a second time to request that someone walk us through the diverters and jet controls in more detail.  In the meantime, I'll see if I can locate a different Sundance dealer that isn't hours away.

Thanks again to everyone for offering some great feedback.  

-E

[wmccall]

Chas, the first to use 9 quotes in a single message!  Gold medal!

[Chas]

Chas

Thanks for your response. Maybe you can let us know about what HS philosophy is concerning all the changes made in the past few years that Stuart mentioned?

I can only guess here: they wanted to improve the product, and they had all the changes ready to go at approximately the same time. HotSpring has never made this many changes at once before, but many of these changes were in motion already.

What kind of changes? I know the Envoy is a totally new design and I love it....I seem to remember the lounge was just the right size for me.

They offered 38 changes. Some of them were simple extensions of changes which were underway already: such as reshaping the bar top area with cupholders and no tile. Several models had made this change a year or two before.

Other changes were more involved, such as adding a 'mid sized' jet and larger pumps to the HP models. This is were having a company with a real engineering staff comes into play, and these jets have been used on Caldera spas for years. Calcs were made, the equipment plumbed in, and the tubs work. We needed to add more flow to the filters, and instead of adding yet more of our existing filters, or taking up more room in the spa by going to a larger filter, we had a vendor design new types of filters. They retrofit to the older spas, and they work quite well.

The color-changing lght array was a simple extension of the all-blue LED arrays that we already had in place. We added a couple of new colors of siding, and the big changes: a couple of waterfalls. They are much more than simple holes in the wall squirting water: they have a balanced system to keep the flow steady when the pump jumps from low-speed to high-speed. Yes, lots of changes.

But I think many of them were under way prior, and others had been simply waiting for the appropriate time.

Anyway, I'm just curious. Thanks again.

IonHeaven

[Shut_Down_Stranger]

I looked at the optima, marquis euphoria, and HS grandee. All are excellent tubs.

we own the grandee.

pictures of our installation.

http://members.cox.net/jim69bird/Complete

we have no problem about the power, I like the moto massage, and the bench seats, which are more accomodating for conversation.  One thing that set the tub apoart was the slightly retangular configuration and the fact that the non-corner seats are just as fun as the ones in the corners.

we paid about the same, set up and installation was very professional, hot springs is a bit unusual in wiring (separate wiring for pumps and heaters), but provides the panel ($100).

we got the upgraded lift and I would strongly recommend that.

we also changed 2 of the fixed jets to the spinner type, HS threw them into the dieal. glad we did that.

Beer holders are important too....

[bethshar]

Sobe -

What did you like better about the Optima vs Grandee?  Just curious.