Grandee- good or bad $ and performance?

[OhWhyNot]

Hello everyone.
I'm really happy to have stumbled across this site!  Husband and I are shopping for a hot tub- had two wonderful experiences with our local (and only) HS dealer.  First trip was informational, second was wet test with two eager family members to determine which HS tub we preferred.  

After reading the many postings here, I was prepared for a surprise during the wet test, and we got it!  Turns out we didn't actually love the Envoy with all of us slopping around in it, despite it's fabulous copper color!  We found ourselves preferring the bigger and lounge-less Grandee, much to our surprise.

The dealer has offered us the pearl/redwood Grandee with cover, lift, steps, 220 subpanel, water care kit and u.v. ozone unit, delivered, for $8195.  A bit more than we had planned to spend, but we really like the tub.  Is that a decent price?  Is it very bad not to test other brands of tubs? (there aren't really many to choose from where we live)  We've really enjoyed the folks we've met at the dealership- they were very enthusiastic about our wet test and staying after closing and providing robes, towels, etc.  After reading everyone's posts about how important the dealer is (and this one sells nothing but tubs), I am confident that they would take very good care of us!

Now, as delighted as I am about the Energy Efficient rating of the Grandee, I worry about that jet power thing......  is that a non-issue, or has anyone out there been disapointed with the smaller motor/pump system?  Is there anything we are overlooking about the Grandee, and should we (try to) insist on the other type of ozone unit I've seen mentioned here?  

Thanks again for providing some great information to those of us who are very new at this game!  

- E

[Gary]

HS does not build a strong shell, no fiberglass. They are prone to cracking. I like most everything else about them though.

Gary

[ebirrane]

HS does not build a strong shell, no fiberglass. They are prone to cracking. I like most everything else about them though.

Gary

Wow.  What total bull.

-Ed

[Spa_Tech]

Prone to cracking?

I'm not 100% certain I'd agree with that characterization...

There have been some materials issues in the past, circa 1994/1995 that occured because the vacumme thermoform stretched the endurol material too thin in some places- particularly in the Jetsetter near the light lens.

However, because of these issues, Watkins took some measures to prevent the material from being stretched to its limits. 1] You'll note that shell designs evolved to incorporate curves with much softer radii,  2] Watkins began using an additional layer of 30# structural foam- which ridgidizes the shell, and 3] Watkins also added supports in areas like the cool down bench, to prevent repetitive material flexing.

In terms of shell strength, Dimension One, Bullfrog, and others do similar things with their one-piece composite- I know Dimension One warrantees their Ultra Life shell for the duration of ownership...and HotSpring warantees the shell and structure for seven years... Were they really prone to cracking, HotSpring and Dimension One would hardly be able to afford warranty repair costs of their product.

HotSpring shells are no more prone to cracking than any other spa shell in my opinion.

[ebirrane]

I have a 2003 Grandee and we have had very positive experiences with it.  Hot Springs (actually, watkins) has a terrific service and track record.  They had some struggles in the 80s and early 90s and changed some process around back then, but their response to customer satisfaction has become one of the things that makes them stand out as an honorable business.

The jets will be no stronger (and no weaker) once the tub is installed in your house.  If it works for you when you wet test (and feel free to go back and wet test a few more times -- we wet tested 3 times before we bought).  The grandees jets have plenty of power for us, even when we are running all of them at once.

A big deciding factor for me was the moto massage. That really grew on me and my wife.  You can turn the temperature down to about 97 or 98 and sit in front of a moto-massage jet for hours, enjoy some beers, enjoy some company, enjoy the stars, just enjoy.

Additionally, I tend to really like the center seat opposite the outside control panel. Sit in that, put a foot on each foot jet, and just melt.

I paid about $8200 (with tax and basic options) but that was for a 2003 "get rid of it to make room for 2004s". Sounds like your quoted price is right in the ballpark, and perhaps on the lower end to boot.

-Ed

[Spatech_tuo]

After reading the many postings here, I was prepared for a surprise during the wet test, and we got it!  Turns out we didn't actually love the Envoy with all of us slopping around in it, despite it's fabulous copper color!  We found ourselves preferring the bigger and lounge-less Grandee, much to our surprise.

Spas with open bench seating may not look as inviting as those with the sculpted seating but many find the openness a plus. This is why wet testing is key as your experience may not be the same as the last guy or the next one.

Is it very bad not to test other brands of tubs? (there aren't really many to choose from where we live)  We've really enjoyed the folks we've met at the dealership- they were very enthusiastic about our wet test and staying after closing and providing robes, towels, etc.  After reading everyone's posts about how important the dealer is (and this one sells nothing but tubs), I am confident that they would take very good care of us!

It’s always a good idea to test more than one brand to have a basis for comparison. As you noted it’s also very important to find a dealer who seems straightforward, on the ball and willing/able to service your needs. If you have reservations check out another dealer. If you're satisfied with the spa then you know you've got a dealer you trust.

Now, as delighted as I am about the Energy Efficient rating of the Grandee, I worry about that jet power thing......  is that a non-issue, or has anyone out there been disapointed with the smaller motor/pump system?    

- E

Are you saying the wet test left you the impression the spa needed more power or are you saying you know other spas have more horsepower and feel maybe you're being shortchanged. Don't get caught up in pump specifications as a well designed spa makes proper use of the power the pump gives and a poorly designed spa requires more horsepower to get the job done and costs more to run. This comes down to how the jets felt.

[IonHeaven]

I'm curious what you didn't prefer about the Envoy?

I'm also interested in a Hot Springs, considering the Envoy, but have also been warned about the shell issues, problems with the moto-massage, among other things.

I don't know what to make of it all, but perhaps the helpful folks on this site will help us sort this out. Hopefully this doesn't stir things up too much but,

I was told:

HS can't fiberglass their shells due to EPA regulations where they are located so they use a high density foam that is not nearly as strong, thus more prone to crack. The cracks are not only problems astehtically, but will leak.

BTW, I have not heard any of this from a HS owner yet.

Also: I 've been told about problems with their Everwood cabinets fading. The HS dealer said that they sell a product (Everwood Stain Kit) to maintain the cabinet. I'm not sure if other cabinets need this maintainance as well. Also was told that the panels have peeled in the sun.

Been told that HS has as many or more problems with their spas than anyone out there and that the maintenance cost will be higher over time due to the high cost of replacement parts.

I've also been told repeatedly by many many folks, including HS owners, that HS takes really good care of their customers, so not to worry and get the spa you like best. Now if only I could remember enough about my wet tests to decide!!

I think the Grandee is a great spa, and sometimes I think we can overanalyze these choices. This forum provides us with much great info, but remember, you've got a great dealership to work with, which IMO means alot as well.  

I'm still deciding between the Envoy and the Marquis and wish I could wet test the two one more time. Doesn't seem possible though.

If your not sure, wet test again! Seems like your dealer will be very accomodating.

Keep me posted as to your decision.

IonHeaven

[OhWhyNot]

thanks for the quick feedback!

Spatech, I didn't think the tub felt underpowered- more like we were not at all familiar with the controls and didn't know how to maximize the tub's power.  It seems that there were two jet buttons, so one or both sides could be powered, and the power certainly felt fine with both sets 'on'.  I think that at one point the girls noticed that when one seat's power was increased (by the controls along the tub's edge) there was a decrease in another area, and I wondered if that is a common occurance with most tubs?  Is that something that wouldn't happen with larger pumps?

Ed, one funny thing did happen- I had forgotten that the Grandee has two moto-massages, so I was puzzled that the two seats didn't feel the same at all.  You know what I mean?  While we were in the tub, I thought they were two different types of seats.  Only later did I realize they were both moto-massage seats.  I'm guessing this was more about folks playing with the jet/nozzle adjustments rather than a power issue?  My husband liked the moto seat the best, so I guess it's better to have two and not fight over them!  

I have a Sundance dealer and a Jacuzzi dealer in the area, so I plan to check them out as you have suggested.  HS folks are coming tomorrow for site review, but I'm guessing their conclusions will be the same as anyone else's if we end up going with a different brand....

Thanks again for being so generous and helpful to yet another newbie!  
-E

[doodoo]

thanks for the quick feedback!

Spatech, I didn't think the tub felt underpowered- more like we were not at all familiar with the controls and didn't know how to maximize the tub's power.  It seems that there were two jet buttons, so one or both sides could be powered, and the power certainly felt fine with both sets 'on'.  I think that at one point the girls noticed that when one seat's power was increased (by the controls along the tub's edge) there was a decrease in another area, and I wondered if that is a common occurance with most tubs?  Is that something that wouldn't happen with larger pumps?

Thanks again for being so generous and helpful to yet another newbie!  
-E
 

What you refer to are more than liely diverter valves where power is taken from one seat to another.

I have the same thing on my Sundace Optima and we have the ability to turn power completly off on seats thereby increasing the power to others. In one of the seat if you put all power to it it will leterally blow my wife out of it.  That being said, pump size have something to do with it but design of the system has a lot more to do with it.

HS is a highly reputable tub, and I completely dissagree with Gary here. I know that they had their issues in the late 80's/90's but all that was resolved and others here who own an HS tub will no doubt chime in tell you that that is a crock.

Enjoy your Sundacne and other wet tests, that is a fun part o shopping for a tub.

BTW we chose the Optima over the Cameo because we too prefered to openess of the tub and did not like the lounger.

[Perk1]

I have owned my HS Landmark for a little over a year and a half and it just keeps getting better everyday.  It is a well built spa with plenty of power.  The Landmark is the same size as the Grandee with a little different seating arrangement.  You will love the size of the Grandee whether it is just youa nd your husband or if you are entertaining.  

I think the price you are being quoted is a great price for this tub.  

Ion, you haven't bought that Envoy yet?  Are you trying to be the new 'D&C'?  You say you heard a lot of bad things about HS.  How much of this did you hear from competing dealers or people who are sorry they didn't buy a HS so they figure it is best to bash it to make themselves feel better?

Bottom line -  You will NOT be disappointed if you purchase a HS tub.

[stuart]

There have been some materials issues in the past, circa 1994/1995 that occurred because the vacumme thermoform stretched the endurol material too thin in some places- particularly in the Jetsetter near the light lens.

It was a whole lot more than Jetsetters and yes; there was a problem with the light lens. I fixed several of the sovereigns and Grande’s clear up until 1998 so I can't say it was just in those few years. Hotspring did change the entire light configuration so that helped immensely.

However, because of these issues, Watkins took some measures to prevent the material from being stretched to its limits. 1] You'll note that shell designs evolved to incorporate curves with much softer radii,  2] Watkins began using an additional layer of 30# structural foam- which ridgidizes the shell, and 3] Watkins also added supports in areas like the cool down bench, to prevent repetitive material flexing.

The bench area was the most prevalent to cracking because of that’s where you step in. I also understand that Watkins strengthened this area.

Hot Springs (actually, Watkins) has a terrific service and track record

I agree! I think that Watkins has an excellent track record for taking care of their customers.

Were they really prone to cracking, HotSpring and Dimension One would hardly be able to afford warranty repair costs of their product.

I don't know if I agree here, both are pretty expensive spas and a large part of that is figured into the fact that both companies pre-plan customer service costs.

HS can't fiberglass their shells due to EPA regulations where they are located so they use a high density foam that is not nearly as strong, thus more prone to crack. The cracks are not only problems astehtically, but will leak.

I believe they can fiberglass but the cost to do so now where they are at does not make sense. My personal opinion is that fiberglass is better and much stronger than foam although HS seems to have made it work well for years. I just have to think you would not consider a $50,000 corvette made out of foam (even if it were high density).

All in all HotSpring is a very proven brand and they take care of their customers, my biggest worry with them now is that they made an incredible amount of product changes in the last few years that they stood firm against for a long time. There is no telling what the long term effect of those changes will be until they’ve been out for awhile. I personally believe that you can support 3-4 major changes a year in a product without much recourse, it will be interesting to see how 30-40 changes over the last few years will effect the life of the product.

[tony]

One thing about the hotspring EE spas is you will probably have fewer service calls than most other spas.  They are well engineered and solid.

[Lori]

My Vanguard is almost a year old (just a few weeks) and it is still great!  No cracking issues, and I am certainly not worried about it.

I have to agree, having 2 moto-massage seats is a great idea, my husband and I don't fight over who gets that seat!  Of course, mine has the hydro-pulse plate while his still has the regular plate, and once I am done with my seat, he always jumps right over into it!!!

Performance wise, if you enjoyed the wet test, but feel you need a little more experience in the tub, set up another wet test.  Ask the dealer to explain the diverters to you, while sitting in the tub.  I wet tested twice, my last two choices were the HS Vanguard and LA Spa Fiji.  I went to my HS dealer and tested the Vanguard, then went to the LA dealer and tested the Fiji, back to back!  That sure helped with my final decision.  I find there is plenty of power in my tub.  I felt "beat up" after testing some models!

Good luck!  HotSpring is one of the best (not that there aren't other great manufacturers out there) and you can not go wrong with one!!!  The dealer sounds very helpful and knowledgeable!

Just a few of my thoughts!!!

[wmccall]

 Is that a decent price?  Is it very bad not to test other brands of tubs? (there aren't really many to choose from where we live)  

Can't comment on the price. I'm sure you will be happy with a Hot Springs tub, but how of curiousity, where do you call home? Sometimes there are dealerships nearby you may not have realized.

[sobe]

YOU MIGHT WANT TO WET TEST THE SUNDANCE OPTIMA PROVIDING THERE IS A SUNDANCE DEALER NEAR YOU.
DURING MY WET TESTS I PREFERRED THE OPTIMA OVER THE GRANDEE.
I TOO STARTED LOOKING AT THE VISTA FIRST BUT DID NOT CARE FOR THE LOUNGER AND FINALLY ENDED UP ORDERING THE OPTIMA.
GOOD LUCK!