Over-Thinking now: Sundance Chelsee or Bullfrog R7

[silversun]

Thanks! I ended up going with Great Bay Spa and Sauna in Portsmouth NH. Easily the best dealer I worked with, and I went EVERYWHERE on the North Shore of Mass and southern NH. I must have visited 8-10 dealers in the area. They had the rare combination of:
- product knowledge (some sales reps knew less about the hot tub than I did). Great bay was extremely knowledgeable.
- listening skills. They were interested in what I thought was important, and didn't just launch into their sales pitch. I actually did most of the talking, which was rare.
- they gave a sh**, which I found to be in short supply among other dealers. They seemed to actually care that I was happy with the hot tub I purchased.
- they were open, honest, and transparent. Prices were on display right where they should be; directly next to the hot tubs. Explanations about why they took a certain decision to offer certain non-standard features was clearly explained, sensible, and truthful. They were also very clear about their policies and procedures.

all of that goes a really long way in an industry that I've quickly learned can be shady as hell.

It's arriving whenever we can finish the renovations on our house, so hopefully before december. So the delay will be on my end, not theirs. Thanks for all your help and will post pics when it arrives! 

[Tman122]

all of that goes a really long way in an industry that I've quickly learned can be shady as hell.

I think shady is a miss characterization. Some dealers and manufacturers use half facts as I call them, to explain how theirs is better. And pricing is open to as much as you can get.

[Thisismyname]

all of that goes a really long way in an industry that I've quickly learned can be shady as hell.

I think shady is a miss characterization. Some dealers and manufacturers use half facts as I call them, to explain how theirs is better. And pricing is open to as much as you can get.

I've met with/tested out Caldera, 2 Bullfrog Dealers, D1, Jacuzzi, 2 HotSprings Dealers, and Marquis. 

Each and every one of them told me they have the most energy efficient tubs on the market.  They all told me their system provides the cleanest water.  They all somewhat bashed all other brands a tad when I brought them up.  Blah blah blah....sales tactics I guess

[silversun]

I don't think it's a mischaracterization at all. I'm a consumer. As a first time hot tub buyer, after a month of visiting dealers in my area, it's my assessment. And I'd argue that it's probably more valuable of an assessment than an industry professional who's been in the business for years.

I'd only consider buying a hot tub from 4 of the 10 dealers I visited.

- one dealer said I could only wet test if I gave him my credit card and put down a $500 deposit on the hot tub in advance. Shady.
- the same dealer claimed I could get a discount on the tub because customers pay a deposit and then either does not want to purchase or can't afford to pay for the rest of it. Shady.
- my experience with the dealer asking to pay up front via check in the mail has been well documented here. Shady.
- Most dealers give prices reluctantly from their own closely guarded book - as opposed to displaying retail prices where negotiations can even start. Shady.

How can consumers even compare if they can't see one of the most important pieces of information they need to make a decision?
All of this gives a bad first impression to a new generation of hut tub buyers. Buyers who are resourceful, do their homework, and price compare. We also expect transparency and honesty. We can compartmentalize sales pitch and half truths, but we can easily sniff out total BS, and there was a lot of total BS, in my experience.

Dealers and industry professionals reading this can choose to ignore it if they like. Good luck in 5-10 years.

[mjdieth]

Well, I could not wait until the weekend so I went and I tested 3 tubs last night; Sundance Chelsee, Bullfrog R7, Jacuzzi J-345.  Although I originally liked the looks of the Chelsee better, the jest literally felt like I was being blasted with laser beams, hurt pretty bad.  Even on the lowers setting it just did not hurt quite as much.  The Jacuzzi was nice but more than I want/can spend right now.  The bullfrog, although I really don't like the ambiance of the tub, felt the best by far.  The jets actually seemed to have a purpose. 

The only issue with all of them is that I could not stay in the seats, any of them at all.  Initial quote on the Bullfrog was for $7350 + tax (no negotiation yet, how low should I go in at) That includes delivery, setup, acrylic jetpacks, circ pump, ozone.  Not sure what to do anymore.  I float in all of them so I guess just go with the best jets?

[Spatech_tuo]

Well, I could not wait until the weekend so I went and I tested 3 tubs last night; Sundance Chelsee, Bullfrog R7, Jacuzzi J-345.  Although I originally liked the looks of the Chelsee better, the jest literally felt like I was being blasted with laser beams, hurt pretty bad.  Even on the lowers setting it just did not hurt quite as much.  The Jacuzzi was nice but more than I want/can spend right now.  The bullfrog, although I really don't like the ambiance of the tub, felt the best by far.  The jets actually seemed to have a purpose. 

The only issue with all of them is that I could not stay in the seats, any of them at all.  Initial quote on the Bullfrog was for $7350 + tax (no negotiation yet, how low should I go in at) That includes delivery, setup, acrylic jetpacks, circ pump, ozone.  Not sure what to do anymore.  I float in all of them so I guess just go with the best jets?

This certainly points to the importance of wet testing. Floating in the seats isn't ideal, are those your only options?

[mjdieth]

This certainly points to the importance of wet testing. Floating in the seats isn't ideal, are those your only options?

Well, in my price range pretty much.  I think there may have been too much water in them as well, so I think that will help a bit.  When I sat in them the water was only about an inch from overflowing.

[Sam]

Well, I could not wait until the weekend so I went and I tested 3 tubs last night; Sundance Chelsee, Bullfrog R7, Jacuzzi J-345.  Although I originally liked the looks of the Chelsee better, the jest literally felt like I was being blasted with laser beams, hurt pretty bad.  Even on the lowers setting it just did not hurt quite as much.  The Jacuzzi was nice but more than I want/can spend right now.  The bullfrog, although I really don't like the ambiance of the tub, felt the best by far.  The jets actually seemed to have a purpose. 

The only issue with all of them is that I could not stay in the seats, any of them at all.  Initial quote on the Bullfrog was for $7350 + tax (no negotiation yet, how low should I go in at) That includes delivery, setup, acrylic jetpacks, circ pump, ozone.  Not sure what to do anymore.  I float in all of them so I guess just go with the best jets?

That price is pretty low on the Bullfrog.  What does that include?  Most dealers sell that in the mid $9k range with ozone, cover, delivery, steps, etc.

[Tman122]

Well, I could not wait until the weekend so I went and I tested 3 tubs last night; Sundance Chelsee, Bullfrog R7, Jacuzzi J-345.  Although I originally liked the looks of the Chelsee better, the jest literally felt like I was being blasted with laser beams, hurt pretty bad.  Even on the lowers setting it just did not hurt quite as much.  The Jacuzzi was nice but more than I want/can spend right now.  The bullfrog, although I really don't like the ambiance of the tub, felt the best by far.  The jets actually seemed to have a purpose. 

The only issue with all of them is that I could not stay in the seats, any of them at all.  Initial quote on the Bullfrog was for $7350 + tax (no negotiation yet, how low should I go in at) That includes delivery, setup, acrylic jetpacks, circ pump, ozone.  Not sure what to do anymore.  I float in all of them so I guess just go with the best jets?

This certainly points to the importance of wet testing. Floating in the seats isn't ideal, are those your only options?

What about other models?

[bradleyabell]

nobody cares about lights/waterfalls after 6 months...buy the spa that feels better

True, i'm just very disappointed that the more expensive R series looks worse than the X series.  It is really odd that Bullfrog went that route.

I just purchased the X8L and we loved it.  It is a huge tub that can actually COMFORTABLY fit 6 without touching legs!

[mjdieth]

I just purchased the X8L and we loved it.  It is a huge tub that can actually COMFORTABLY fit 6 without touching legs!

What are the jets like in it?  I will not have the opportunity to wet test that model and wondered if there are different kinds of jets and what they do as they all look the same to me. I cannot find any information about it other than the number.

[BullFrogSpasMN]

I just purchased the X8L and we loved it.  It is a huge tub that can actually COMFORTABLY fit 6 without touching legs!

What are the jets like in it?  I will not have the opportunity to wet test that model and wondered if there are different kinds of jets and what they do as they all look the same to me. I cannot find any information about it other than the number.

They are def. not JetPaks, but yet they are comparable to other models that sell in the same price points, basically you get 4 different varieties, the small bullet style jets, directional jets higher pressure jets, then 2 different types of "spinners" 1 which has a single 'head' and the other is a triple 'head'...nice thing about the X series is that you can control pressure on each individual jet (including the smallest ones) WITHOUT have to use diverter knobs which are a major fail point

[bradleyabell]

I just purchased the X8L and we loved it.  It is a huge tub that can actually COMFORTABLY fit 6 without touching legs!

What are the jets like in it?  I will not have the opportunity to wet test that model and wondered if there are different kinds of jets and what they do as they all look the same to me. I cannot find any information about it other than the number.

They are def. not JetPaks, but yet they are comparable to other models that sell in the same price points, basically you get 4 different varieties, the small bullet style jets, directional jets higher pressure jets, then 2 different types of "spinners" 1 which has a single 'head' and the other is a triple 'head'...nice thing about the X series is that you can control pressure on each individual jet (including the smallest ones) WITHOUT have to use diverter knobs which are a major fail point

Yes we really liked this feature...We tried the jet packs and honestly were not that impressed.  We didn't think it was worth the extra money to be able to "switch out" jet packs.  I didn't see value in it.  The jets are great though in the X series.  We were able to get the very large X8L for under $7,000 with stairs, chemicals and a cover lifter thrown in+installation. 

We didn't think we wanted a lounger AT ALL...Until we wet tested the X8L and we fell in love with it and actually decided we NEEDED a lounger.  If you are even considering it, ask the dealer to fill the tub for you to wet test.  We had no issues with people helping us out with that.  Just give them a few days to get it all set up.

[BullFrogSpasMN]

I just purchased the X8L and we loved it.  It is a huge tub that can actually COMFORTABLY fit 6 without touching legs!

What are the jets like in it?  I will not have the opportunity to wet test that model and wondered if there are different kinds of jets and what they do as they all look the same to me. I cannot find any information about it other than the number.

They are def. not JetPaks, but yet they are comparable to other models that sell in the same price points, basically you get 4 different varieties, the small bullet style jets, directional jets higher pressure jets, then 2 different types of "spinners" 1 which has a single 'head' and the other is a triple 'head'...nice thing about the X series is that you can control pressure on each individual jet (including the smallest ones) WITHOUT have to use diverter knobs which are a major fail point

Yes we really liked this feature...We tried the jet packs and honestly were not that impressed. We didn't think it was worth the extra money to be able to "switch out" jet packs.  I didn't see value in it. The jets are great though in the X series.  We were able to get the very large X8L for under $7,000 with stairs, chemicals and a cover lifter thrown in+installation. 

We didn't think we wanted a lounger AT ALL...Until we wet tested the X8L and we fell in love with it and actually decided we NEEDED a lounger.  If you are even considering it, ask the dealer to fill the tub for you to wet test.  We had no issues with people helping us out with that.  Just give them a few days to get it all set up.

There ya go, you are exactly the customer Bullfrog built that X series for...you appreciate a high build quality, good insulation, something that was built this side of the Mexican border, wrapped in a maintenance free structure and base....whereas the structural engineer who comes through with a binder full of Hot Tub research won't buy anything but a Bullfrog with JetPaks...different strokes for different folks, I'm glad you were able to find the product that was perfect for YOU.

[Tman122]

WITHOUT have to use diverter knobs which are a major fail point

In 30 years of servicing thousands of tubs I have fixed 6-7 diverters. Not sure if that qualifies as "major"?

I think the versatility and adjustment make diverters important if you want more adjustment options.