Bullfrog A7L, Caldera Geneva, Hot Springs High Life Envoy?

[Spayedkitty]

Yay, congrats on the hot tub shopping!

Caldera's Utopia series is similar to Hot Spring's Limelight series. (The Pulse is same footpring in size, without a lounge or "Captain's Chair)
Even though the Geneva looks similiar to the Envoy- they are still quite different in the design, jetting, filtration, controls...etc.

I most definitely agree that soaking these two could make a big difference in your decision.
Good Luck!

So, do you think the Envoy is a better quality tub?  The dealer at Hot Springs told me the Hot Springs is a Bentley and a Caldera is a Yugo.  He said it's not comparing apples to apples.  I like the cabinet on the Caldera much better than the Envoy.  Is the filtration better on the Envoy?

The Envoy (Highlife series) is still a level on it's own. There is no apples to apples when talking Geneva vs. Envoy other then similar shell shape.

Although the cabinetry can be a huge factor in your landscape DESIGN, it does nothing for the functionality of the tub itself. Wet testing will be what matters, because you are looking for relief and comfort. The Envoy has the ability to do super easy watercare as well.
Test soak. Then make a decision!

Are you saying the Envoy High Life is on a level of it's own because it is better built, better materials or because it's more comfortable?  Also on the easy water care, are you referring to the salt system?

[Spayedkitty]

Yay, congrats on the hot tub shopping!

Caldera's Utopia series is similar to Hot Spring's Limelight series. (The Pulse is same footpring in size, without a lounge or "Captain's Chair)
Even though the Geneva looks similiar to the Envoy- they are still quite different in the design, jetting, filtration, controls...etc.

I most definitely agree that soaking these two could make a big difference in your decision.
Good Luck!

So, do you think the Envoy is a better quality tub?  The dealer at Hot Springs told me the Hot Springs is a Bentley and a Caldera is a Yugo.  He said it's not comparing apples to apples.  I like the cabinet on the Caldera much better than the Envoy.  Is the filtration better on the Envoy?

Dealers say stuff like this all the time. They get paid to sell their brand not the competition. It's called salesmanship and should be left out of your decision making process on these two brands. I would say they are both about the same in quality, longevity and energy efficiency. Go with the brand that feels best on your butt.

Well the Caldera dealer is 40 minutes away in another town.  The Hot Springs dealer is in the same town we live in.  I didn't really care for the gruff sales pitch of the Hot Springs dealer.  Still, being right in town I would think is a benefit.  Plus the Hot Springs dealer has been in business for a long time, also does in ground pools.  What is a fair price for the Envoy High Life?  The sales guy quoted me 12,500.00 for the Highest level Envoy.  He said that will be the one we want once we test it.  We don't want the stereo.

[Spayedkitty]

Yay, congrats on the hot tub shopping!

Caldera's Utopia series is similar to Hot Spring's Limelight series. (The Pulse is same footpring in size, without a lounge or "Captain's Chair)
Even though the Geneva looks similiar to the Envoy- they are still quite different in the design, jetting, filtration, controls...etc.

I most definitely agree that soaking these two could make a big difference in your decision.
Good Luck!

Geneva is similar to the Limelight series?  The price of the Geneva is the same at the Envoy High Life.  Why would the Geneva be the same price if it's a lower end tub than the High Life?  Actually another dealer quoted us 14 grand for the Geneva which is a lot more than the Envoy.

[Spayedkitty]

Yay, congrats on the hot tub shopping!

Caldera's Utopia series is similar to Hot Spring's Limelight series. (The Pulse is same footpring in size, without a lounge or "Captain's Chair)
Even though the Geneva looks similiar to the Envoy- they are still quite different in the design, jetting, filtration, controls...etc.

I most definitely agree that soaking these two could make a big difference in your decision.
Good Luck!

So, do you think the Envoy is a better quality tub?  The dealer at Hot Springs told me the Hot Springs is a Bentley and a Caldera is a Yugo.  He said it's not comparing apples to apples.  I like the cabinet on the Caldera much better than the Envoy.  Is the filtration better on the Envoy?

That's actually a pretty cringe-worthy statement especially when considering the 2 brands mentioned...Watkins Manf. builds both tubs, they both retail for 11-13k, but yet one is a Yugo and one is a Bentley? So basically everyone buying a Caldera over 10k is a getting an unreliable overpriced junker? is that what he's saying? Makes no sense at all, pure rubbish

Yes, the dealer was quite gruff in cutting me off and saying why would I want a Yugo.  I know both brands are made by Watkins and I am guessing from everything I have read, both are well made and well performing tubs.  We have been told so much conflicting information from each dealer, it makes my head spin. My husband says it's up to me, he's tired of the dealers and the looking.

We are tearing out our old patio and replacing with new and have to run electrical then we can get the tub.  Trying to decide on a concrete pad 4 inches or if pavers will be ok.  We are putting down limestone, then sand, then the pavers, probably tumbled cobblestone.  Some dealers tell us pavers are fine, others tell us gravel, and one Caldera dealer has told us NO, concrete pad.  He told us in a couple of years or less our tub won't be level and could even crack.  We are Indiana.  I know the warranty for Geneva says it must be on at least 4 inches concrete.

[Spayedkitty]

Almost 30 years ago I remember my x mother n law who owned a spa company using bleach in the hot tub.  I don't recall too much other than the bleach poured straight from the bottle.  I was wondering if the Frog cartridges were more of a gimmick that would require more money.  An Artesian dealer told me he quit ordering his floor models with the Frog system because customers were complaining of either too much chemical being released or not enough and that the cost is too expensive.  I don't know yet the Geneva or the Envoy.  I have to talk to both dealers again this week.  I have really been leaning towards the Geneva.  May I ask what you have yours placed on and do you live in a cold climate?  The warranty says it must be on a concrete slab or a deck.  One Caldera dealer told us gravel and another told us Slab or deck.  We plan on doing a slab.  I can't wait to get it.  Thank you for the information.  The fact that you would purchase the same model same brand again says a lot!

My Geneva sits on top of a 30” high wood construction deck I built. The tub weighs about 6000 pounds full of water and then add in the weight of people etc and you need a sturdy deck.

It is very cold where we live we get temps as low as –30f every winter and weeks at a time subzero. There were a couple things about the Geneva that I found appealed to me in this climate. First was the packed insulation material they call fiber-cor. It has amazingly good insulation factor and it can be easily removed and replaced if repairs are ever needed. In the case of a leak water travels straight down thru it and it is easier to pinpoint the leak. The second cold weather feature the Geneva has is the split GFCI breaker panel. I have 240v power off a 50a breaker in the house feeding the spa panel. Inside the panel there are 2 GFCI breakers a 20a and a 30a and then 7 wires running to the tub. The power to the heaters and to the pumps are two separate feeds. The tub is programmed so that if the heater goes in the winter the tub alerts you of that and goes into a survival mode. What it does is slowly circulate the hot water in the tub to keep pipes from freezing in the more exposed areas of the equipment area. In the winter with 103 104f water in the tub and zero ambient temps outside this gives the tub days of protection longer than without this feature to get a service man out to replace the heater.

Most of the sanitizing made simple devices I think are made to sell you overpriced products. Just like K-cup coffee. I personally think the salt generators are the way to go. But the ones offered as a in tub package are more of the same. I have a friend with an after market salt chlorine generator and it really works nice. I have more than once thought about getting one. I don’t feel they would damage a tub but the warranty might see it different is the only reason I haven’t.

Most of the products sold for spas have a inexpensive counterpart. Clorox type bleach is just one of them.   

The Fiber Core is a very attractive insulation for us.  My husband cringes at the thought of that sprayed foam that gets hard.  I think I may go visit the Hot Springs dealer tomorrow.  This is such an expensive item, I want to make the right decision since it's not something we can just return if we change our mind.  I've also read that the traditional full foam is out dated and it can actually cause leaks from vibration.

[TemptingDestiny]

Check out the Limelight and Compare to the Utopia. Utopia looks like it's Caldera's top of the line.
 They are approx the same level with build and insulation with Limelight.- The Highlife Series takes it up another notch and does some things with some of it's build that no one else does. Filtration changes (5 filters, no intakes-they replace with multiple filters) Wireless controls, jetting changes, lighting... Insulation does change from Fiber-cor to Full foam (in the Highlife Series)


Test soak. Either way, you are deciding on two great tubs that will be an investment into your lifestyle. I can tell you all day long that something is great but if it doesn't feel good to you- then what's the point?

Test soak.

[Jacuzzi Jim]

Almost 30 years ago I remember my x mother n law who owned a spa company using bleach in the hot tub.  I don't recall too much other than the bleach poured straight from the bottle.  I was wondering if the Frog cartridges were more of a gimmick that would require more money.  An Artesian dealer told me he quit ordering his floor models with the Frog system because customers were complaining of either too much chemical being released or not enough and that the cost is too expensive.  I don't know yet the Geneva or the Envoy.  I have to talk to both dealers again this week.  I have really been leaning towards the Geneva.  May I ask what you have yours placed on and do you live in a cold climate?  The warranty says it must be on a concrete slab or a deck.  One Caldera dealer told us gravel and another told us Slab or deck.  We plan on doing a slab.  I can't wait to get it.  Thank you for the information.  The fact that you would purchase the same model same brand again says a lot!

My Geneva sits on top of a 30” high wood construction deck I built. The tub weighs about 6000 pounds full of water and then add in the weight of people etc and you need a sturdy deck.

It is very cold where we live we get temps as low as –30f every winter and weeks at a time subzero. There were a couple things about the Geneva that I found appealed to me in this climate. First was the packed insulation material they call fiber-cor. It has amazingly good insulation factor and it can be easily removed and replaced if repairs are ever needed. In the case of a leak water travels straight down thru it and it is easier to pinpoint the leak. The second cold weather feature the Geneva has is the split GFCI breaker panel. I have 240v power off a 50a breaker in the house feeding the spa panel. Inside the panel there are 2 GFCI breakers a 20a and a 30a and then 7 wires running to the tub. The power to the heaters and to the pumps are two separate feeds. The tub is programmed so that if the heater goes in the winter the tub alerts you of that and goes into a survival mode. What it does is slowly circulate the hot water in the tub to keep pipes from freezing in the more exposed areas of the equipment area. In the winter with 103 104f water in the tub and zero ambient temps outside this gives the tub days of protection longer than without this feature to get a service man out to replace the heater.

Most of the sanitizing made simple devices I think are made to sell you overpriced products. Just like K-cup coffee. I personally think the salt generators are the way to go. But the ones offered as a in tub package are more of the same. I have a friend with an after market salt chlorine generator and it really works nice. I have more than once thought about getting one. I don’t feel they would damage a tub but the warranty might see it different is the only reason I haven’t.

Most of the products sold for spas have a inexpensive counterpart. Clorox type bleach is just one of them.   

The Fiber Core is a very attractive insulation for us.  My husband cringes at the thought of that sprayed foam that gets hard.  I think I may go visit the Hot Springs dealer tomorrow.  This is such an expensive item, I want to make the right decision since it's not something we can just return if we change our mind.  I've also read that the traditional full foam is out dated and it can actually cause leaks from vibration.

  If anything Full foam helps plumbing stay put and not move.   Pick one you liked the best, you will be fine.   FWIW we had a chance to take on Caldera and chose not to because to me it is considered Hot springs red headed step child.   I am sure many HS dealers would argue otherwise, but it seems to be the case here.  Caldera is a very nice spa and just as good as a HS.   Honestly you are putting to much thought into it.   If you have wet tested? And it sounds like you have done your home work, and from you have said about the HS dealer,  I would choose the other.   All that said I have not read this entire thread, so take it from an easy going salesman. Have seen people literally crying in the showroom or at a fair on which tub they should choose.   And have had lost people to buy the other brand because in "their" heart they felt it fit their needs better. 

  Remember the company is not using the spa you are.    Wish you the best in your decision.