Advice before shopping

[heliguy]

Hello everyone,

The wife and I are looking at getting our first hot tub sometime in the next couple months. We live in a townhome in the Toledo, OH area with a small fenced in back yard (big enough for a tub), with concrete pad already laid. The circuit breaker box in the basement is directly underneath the exterior wall where the hot tub will go.

My budget with delivery and setup is roughly $8,000. My primary question is whether this is a reasonable budget for a new tub with 5-6 seating including a lounger? Can I get a good tub at this price or will it be mediocre? I have zero interest in paying for speakers or mobile access or any of those types of "options." I just want a quality tub with good efficiency (insulation) and good massage characteristics.

Next, I'm curious what everyone thinks of loungers in general. I've heard mixed things from people around here about it pushing you out of the seat if you're not tall enough, or that it's a seat you'll never use. The wife and I run a lot so we're attracted to the extra focus on leg massage but I don't want to go into a showroom thinking I need to have something with a lounger if they're snake oil.

Obviously we will do our due diligence in wet testing, etc while shopping around but I just don't want to get my hopes up if a tub with good hydrotherapy properties is out of my price range. Thanks for any input!

[BullFrogSpasMN]

Loungers have positives and negatives, if you truly plan to soak 5-6 people at a time (most don't, even larger families, different schedules/different preferred soaking times/etc.) than you will be "sacrificing" 1 seat because of the lounger so you may want to look at something with an open seat design.  A wet test between a lounger model and non-lounge model can answer your questions in a short amount of time.  I WOULD NOT buy a lounge model without soaking in it first, you could end up very disappointed with yourself if you end up hating the lounge seat.  I can't even begin to tell you how many times I've heard from customers when they come in looking to trade up to a new model... "ya, we bought this thing years back at a State Fair or HomeShow and have NEVER used the lounger seat"

The 7k - 8k price range will get you a good solid "middle of the road" tub with decent insulation and good jets, but if you can squeeze it up to 10k you will open up a lot more options and get you into something "high end" again a lot of what makes a high end tub high end is subjective of course...wet test, wet test, then come back and let us know what manufacturers/tubs you are targeting and we'll help you out.

Good Luck!

[MikeK157]

Ide say just wet test any tub you will buy. We were convinced we would need a lounger but after trying 3 different tubs with loungers we abandoned that idea. We just found the jets were pushing us out of the seat in all 3 tubs. There are other tubs that have strong foot jets that can be used on the thighs and legs as well.

Another viable option is going used or refurb you could get greater value in a tub with more features.

[heliguy]

Thanks for the replies so far. We went to the local dealer today and were shown the D1 Dream for $7,000 and the Bullfrog R6L for $8,000.

Prices include delivery, cover, steps and starter chemicals.

We're going to wet test this week most likely. They have the D1 filled and a bullfrog R6 without the lounger as well. From sitting in them dry the D1 lounger was much much bigger/longer from the hips to the feet but the hamstring support ended a little far behind my knees. The bullfrog lounger was a little more "form fitting" (6'0") with my feet resting right on top of the jets - it was almost like it was built for an exactly 6' person with normal proportions. +1 dry to bullfrog

The regular corner seating in the D1 was wayyyyy deeper and more "bucket" style than the bullfrog. I also felt there might be a little more foot room. +1 dry to the D1. The dealer also said the jets are all interchangeable (assuming same size) so we can still somewhat customize it.

Prices are comparable and within our range, and both look like quality tubs. Without having tested them yet I'm attracted more to the fully composite design and 5 year warranty of the bullfrog (D1 was 3 year).

Are these prices about right for these models?

[BullFrogSpasMN]

Thanks for the replies so far. We went to the local dealer today and were shown the D1 Dream for $7,000 and the Bullfrog R6L for $8,000.

Prices include delivery, cover, steps and starter chemicals.

We're going to wet test this week most likely. They have the D1 filled and a bullfrog R6 without the lounger as well. From sitting in them dry the D1 lounger was much much bigger/longer from the hips to the feet but the hamstring support ended a little far behind my knees. The bullfrog lounger was a little more "form fitting" (6'0") with my feet resting right on top of the jets - it was almost like it was built for an exactly 6' person with normal proportions. +1 dry to bullfrog

The regular corner seating in the D1 was wayyyyy deeper and more "bucket" style than the bullfrog. I also felt there might be a little more foot room. +1 dry to the D1. The dealer also said the jets are all interchangeable (assuming same size) so we can still somewhat customize it.

Prices are comparable and within our range, and both look like quality tubs. Without having tested them yet I'm attracted more to the fully composite design and 5 year warranty of the bullfrog (D1 was 3 year).

Are these prices about right for these models?

Can't comment on the D1 pricing, but the Bullfrog pricing is right in market range, I just sold an R6L floor model for $7,995 so him (your local dealer) and I are right in line on pricing.  Of course don't expect to get your 5-6 capacity into an R6, I mean you can but it will be terribly "tight" which may not be bad depending on how many you plan to soak at the same time.  As far as the Bullfrog vs D1 it will of course come down to your personal preference in a wet test, BUT to me the JetPak system (picking your own jets) and 2 more years of component warranty is easily alone worth the extra $1,000...Good Luck!

[heliguy]

Can't comment on the D1 pricing, but the Bullfrog pricing is right in market range, I just sold an R6L floor model for $7,995 so him (your local dealer) and I are right in line on pricing.  Of course don't expect to get your 5-6 capacity into an R6, I mean you can but it will be terribly "tight" which may not be bad depending on how many you plan to soak at the same time.  As far as the Bullfrog vs D1 it will of course come down to your personal preference in a wet test, BUT to me the JetPak system (picking your own jets) and 2 more years of component warranty is easily alone worth the extra $1,000...Good Luck!

I planned to pay upwards of around $8,000 before tax so the bullfrog price doesn't drive me away at all as long as it's standard/fair - so good to know. I'm subconsciously leaning towards it for the warranty and composite frame but ultimately it's going to come down to which is better. I planned on a 5-6 because I figure it will mostly be just the two of us soaking with the occasional 4 person total and maybe a 5th with the understanding that it would be a little more packed. Anyone I know that uses this tub is not going to turn their nose up at tightness or jet pack vs nozzles....they're gonna be like "fuck yea, hot tub, let me come over."

Also, they had quoted roughly $500 a year for chemicals, said they used some "silk" stuff which allows you to extend the water to 6 months and only drain twice a year. They also said it's a lot more simple to use. Any thoughts? Seems more expensive than I was expecting.

[BullFrogSpasMN]

Can't comment on the D1 pricing, but the Bullfrog pricing is right in market range, I just sold an R6L floor model for $7,995 so him (your local dealer) and I are right in line on pricing.  Of course don't expect to get your 5-6 capacity into an R6, I mean you can but it will be terribly "tight" which may not be bad depending on how many you plan to soak at the same time.  As far as the Bullfrog vs D1 it will of course come down to your personal preference in a wet test, BUT to me the JetPak system (picking your own jets) and 2 more years of component warranty is easily alone worth the extra $1,000...Good Luck!

I planned to pay upwards of around $8,000 before tax so the bullfrog price doesn't drive me away at all as long as it's standard/fair - so good to know. I'm subconsciously leaning towards it for the warranty and composite frame but ultimately it's going to come down to which is better. I planned on a 5-6 because I figure it will mostly be just the two of us soaking with the occasional 4 person total and maybe a 5th with the understanding that it would be a little more packed. Anyone I know that uses this tub is not going to turn their nose up at tightness or jet pack vs nozzles....they're gonna be like "fuck yea, hot tub, let me come over."

Also, they had quoted roughly $500 a year for chemicals, said they used some "silk" stuff which allows you to extend the water to 6 months and only drain twice a year. They also said it's a lot more simple to use. Any thoughts? Seems more expensive than I was expecting.

that $500 number is higher than I would quote simply because of the "Silk Balance" they are including...I'm sure others will share their opinions on it, but I have sold it and strictly in my opinion it's overpriced and only good for the Dealers bottom line, it is not a required product, It's simply a "Balancer" that helps soften the water, it is NOT a sanitizer substitute that has been EPA approved, it's bottled in Canada so they don't have to list the ingredients on the bottle, you still need your required normal water-care products with it, it's usage DOES NOT automatically mean your water will last 6 months, that was a slight "oversell" by him...the life of your water will depend on the amount of usage and how good you are at keeping up with your water care regimen. Good Luck!

edit: please keep in mind I wasn't attempting to throw your sales guy under the bus with my comments above, a lot of times ownership/management requires their sales people to sell certain products (again, good for the bottom line) that was the situation I was in when I was selling it, now that I'm running my own store I simply choose not to carry it.

[heliguy]

Ooookay so that's definitely a point of misunderstanding for us then. It sounded like that was a one-and-done additive to put in the spa. She did mention it would soften the water but didn't specify that it wasn't everything that was needed.

If it's not necessary I definitely won't be buying it for $500 a year. I'd rather drain and fill the tub 2 more times.

[BullFrogSpasMN]

Ooookay so that's definitely a point of misunderstanding for us then. It sounded like that was a one-and-done additive to put in the spa. She did mention it would soften the water but didn't specify that it wasn't everything that was needed.

If it's not necessary I definitely won't be buying it for $500 a year. I'd rather drain and fill the tub 2 more times.

Here's exactly what it is: https://www.amazon.com/Silk-Balance-p-3001-76Fl-Oz/dp/B004R0D2AY I will say we sold it in-store for $179 vs the $140 you see on Amazon, If you do decide to use it I would make sure they are matching Amazon pricing, regardless you'll need 3 bottles a year @ $420 + Filter Cleaner + ph/Alk Adjusters + Sanitizer + Shock + Cover Care Cream...you can see where I'm going here..the "real life" numbers show a Silk Balance system used year around will cost somewhere in the neighborhood of $600-$750 at least not including filter replacements if needed.  Here's a tip, skip the $420 portion of that equation and fill your tub with soft water, target the 100 - 150 ppm range for your calcium hardness level and the water will have that "soft" sensation some people are looking for. Also simply adding 3 ounces of any XYZ product per week does not extend the life of your water, I don't know what else to say other than it simply just does not work that way.

Now a Silk Balance rep could chime in and say well it also prevents Biofilm buildup which in my opinion only and some may disagree but I see absolutely no need to spend an extra $20-$25 3x per year to "purge" a tub, and I also don't believe it is necessary to spend hundreds more per year on products that prevent Biofilm...do frequent water changes, keep your filters cleaned and replaced, keep your pH/Alk/Calcium within range while always maintaining a minimal 1-2 ppm level of sanitizer in the tub and you'll have no issues for 12-15 years...

[heliguy]

Here's exactly what it is: https://www.amazon.com/Silk-Balance-p-3001-76Fl-Oz/dp/B004R0D2AY I will say we sold it in-store for $179 vs the $140 you see on Amazon, If you do decide to use it I would make sure they are matching Amazon pricing, regardless you'll need 3 bottles a year @ $420 + Filter Cleaner + ph/Alk Adjusters + Sanitizer + Shock + Cover Care Cream...you can see where I'm going here..the "real life" numbers show a Silk Balance system used year around will cost somewhere in the neighborhood of $600-$750 at least not including filter replacements if needed.  Here's a tip, skip the $420 portion of that equation and fill your tub with soft water, target the 100 - 150 ppm range for your calcium hardness level and the water will have that "soft" sensation some people are looking for. Also simply adding 3 ounces of any XYZ product per week does not extend the life of your water, I don't know what else to say other than it simply just does not work that way.

Now a Silk Balance rep could chime in and say well it also prevents Biofilm buildup which in my opinion only and some may disagree but I see absolutely no need to spend an extra $20-$25 3x per year to "purge" a tub, and I also don't believe it is necessary to spend hundreds more per year on products that prevent Biofilm...do frequent water changes, keep your filters cleaned and replaced, keep your pH/Alk/Calcium within range while always maintaining a minimal 1-2 ppm level of sanitizer in the tub and you'll have no issues for 12-15 years...

So I'm sure the dealer will go over this but how do I know that I'm filling my tub with soft water? Don't you just fill it from a garden hose?

[heliguy]

So we ended up wet testing a D1 wayfarer - not impressed at all. Whoever designed the lounge in that thing....I don't even know where to start. It was just not ergonomic at all. The jet pressure was also VERY underwhelming. The bucket nature of the corner seats also didn't help to keep you in the seats at all so it was great for dry testing but really didn't hold up with water. I can't stress enough just how underwhelming this tub was.

We then tried a bullfrog A7 without the lounger and wow what a difference. We were blown away at how much better the water pressure and jet patterns were. This model didn't have a lounger but the floor models dry the R6L was a little tight, the R7L was perfect. It's even visibly noticeable just how much more space there is outside the lounger in the R7L. We're leaning towards that right now and were quoted 10,000 for the R7L with cover/lifter/steps 3 months chemicals, delivery and setup. Cash price is 9,500 so a nice discount there. We also really like the hip jets and wrist jets in the corner and lounge seats on the R7. It's a little over what we want to spend but I think those features and the extra pump will probably make it worth it if we go that route.

Is it absolutely 100% necessary to wet test this tub or did the A7 give me a good enough idea of what it's all about? The sales rep said the water pressure would be equivalent because the model we tested has two pumps and the R7L has two pumps. That's really all I'm concerned about when it comes to A versus R, I can say the lounger is perfect for my body compared to the D1 which felt just as bad wet as it did dry.

[39lasalle]

You should be ok without testing the R series...from my understandinh and research,  they have the same pumps and shell minus one jetpac....the A also has the switch by the seats to yurn pumps on and off

39

[Tman122]

So we ended up wet testing a D1 wayfarer - not impressed at all. Whoever designed the lounge in that thing....I don't even know where to start. It was just not ergonomic at all. The jet pressure was also VERY underwhelming. The bucket nature of the corner seats also didn't help to keep you in the seats at all so it was great for dry testing but really didn't hold up with water. I can't stress enough just how underwhelming this tub was.

We then tried a bullfrog A7 without the lounger and wow what a difference. We were blown away at how much better the water pressure and jet patterns were. This model didn't have a lounger but the floor models dry the R6L was a little tight, the R7L was perfect. It's even visibly noticeable just how much more space there is outside the lounger in the R7L. We're leaning towards that right now and were quoted 10,000 for the R7L with cover/lifter/steps 3 months chemicals, delivery and setup. Cash price is 9,500 so a nice discount there. We also really like the hip jets and wrist jets in the corner and lounge seats on the R7. It's a little over what we want to spend but I think those features and the extra pump will probably make it worth it if we go that route.

Is it absolutely 100% necessary to wet test this tub or did the A7 give me a good enough idea of what it's all about? The sales rep said the water pressure would be equivalent because the model we tested has two pumps and the R7L has two pumps. That's really all I'm concerned about when it comes to A versus R, I can say the lounger is perfect for my body compared to the D1 which felt just as bad wet as it did dry.

The Wayfarer is not in the same class as the BF. Your comparing the economy line from D1. It should be underwhelming. Its several grand less.

[heliguy]

It should be underwhelming. Its several grand less.

I understand that and looking at the models that we were initially quoted it was actually a more expensive model that the Dream model that we were shown. Considering the ergonomics design and water pressure differences between the Wayfarer and the A7 that we sat in I wouldn't consider purchasing the Dream for even a second. Even with the extra jets and features of that better model it was incredibly underwhelming. I understand the A7 is a much more expensive hot tub than the R7L that we're settling on as well but it does have the same pumps so I am not concerned that it will be a substandard experience from what we are expecting.

So considering the pricing we have locally, no way I'd buy any D1 in my price range - and I understand what I was sitting in.

[BullFrogSpasMN]

It should be underwhelming. Its several grand less.

I understand that and looking at the models that we were initially quoted it was actually a more expensive model that the Dream model that we were shown. Considering the ergonomics design and water pressure differences between the Wayfarer and the A7 that we sat in I wouldn't consider purchasing the Dream for even a second. Even with the extra jets and features of that better model it was incredibly underwhelming. I understand the A7 is a much more expensive hot tub than the R7L that we're settling on as well but it does have the same pumps so I am not concerned that it will be a substandard experience from what we are expecting.

So considering the pricing we have locally, no way I'd buy any D1 in my price range - and I understand what I was sitting in.

there is no performance difference between an R7 and A7 as far as jetting/pumps/etc. is concerned...The A Series adds 1 more JetPak, a touchscreen controller, cup holder and 4 exterior corner mounted LED lights, 1 piece pillows vs 2 piece, 3 tier waterfall on the A Series vs Single Tier on the R Series, 2 Aux. buttons to turn pumps on/off on the A Series, R Series does not have that feature....most would agree there is overall more "value" in the R-Series but the extra JetPak, Touchscreen, and Aux. controls make it worth the upgrade in my opinion only, oh and I will say the cupholder lights at night when you put a glass on them are damn cool as well.......Good Luck!