What's the Best Hot Tub

Author Topic: And the winner is! - But what about filtration  (Read 8458 times)

TALKCalgary.com

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And the winner is! - But what about filtration
« on: July 25, 2004, 12:17:03 am »
After six weeks of research into hot tubs and many hours pursuing the excellent posting on this BBS, I have narrowed my choice of hot tubs down to two the Beachcomber 750 and the Arctic Spas Tundra.

Both models have their good and bad points. For example, (and I know this is controversial) I personally feel Arctic’s policy of leaving the pluming accessible is a definite plus. Sure if a full foam tub develops a major leak it may be possible to find it, dig out the insulation and fix it, but what a hassle. Also, what if a full foam tub has a minor leak? It could be months before you know about it, by which time you have a hell of a mess on your hands.

When it comes to features, again Arctic wins hands down with more jets, therapy air, a separate reinforced fibreglass base, waterfall features and a light package that leaves Beachcombers puny single light in the dark!  

But as members of this forum are quick to point out, it’s how a tub feels that is important, and after wet testing both manufactures, the Beachcomber 750 with its smaller pumps and limited jets left the Arctic Spas Tundra out in the cold.

I do have two final questions I would like to ask the members of this forum though. Our Beachcomber rep has suggested that we don’t bother with an ozone system. Instead, they recommend I start off with bromine. (which cannot be used with ozone) and switch to chlorine if we have any allergic reactions to bromine. Is this good advice?

Secondly, The Arctic Spa reps say that we should avoid purchasing ANY hot tub that uses a “pleated filter” filtration system. They say these systems only filter down to 60 microns and are next to useless. Apparently, there system filters down to 1 micron, costs less than half that of a pleated filter and eliminates the need for certain chemicals to remove scum and clarify water etc… etc…

Any comments?

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And the winner is! - But what about filtration
« on: July 25, 2004, 12:17:03 am »

Dr. Spa™ Ret.

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Re: And the winner is! - But what about filtration
« Reply #1 on: July 25, 2004, 12:33:16 am »
Your Arctic dealer is feeding you SUCH a crock of bull (or has been completely misinformed), that I would run as fast as you can.....

Bromine CAN be used with bromine.

Scientifically, small particles are measured in "microns". A micron is one millionth (1/1,000,000) of a meter. To give some perspective, a grain of table salt measures between 90 and 110 microns across; a grain of talcum powder is 5-10 microns across. The naked human eye can see down to about 35 microns.

E. Coli bacteria, commonly counted by researchers to judge the effectiveness of water sanitizers, measure between 1 and 4 microns.

If a filter were to filter down to 1 micro in a spa, it's going to be totaly cloged in about 10 minutes. A "pleated" filter will filter down to 8 to 10 microns.

If you can't sell it on eBay, it may not even qualify as landfill.

Retired (mostly) from the industry after 33 years...but still putzing around with a consumer information website, and trying to sell obsolete owners manuals

ssmtim

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Re: And the winner is! - But what about filtration
« Reply #2 on: July 25, 2004, 09:17:02 am »
I think you have answered your own question.  If you are wet testing and one tub just feels better - it's the one for you.  The exception to this should be if there is evidence of reliabillity problems with your choice.  Beachcomber doesn't sell "whistles and bells" but concentrates on delivering a quality product.  I may be biased but we love ours and don't have a Service Call Story to share because there has not been a need for one.

Regarding filtration - I am the Materials Manager for a large Industrial Manufacturer.  We use 10 micron filters for all of our demanding processes.  As Dr. Spa said, smaller is an overkill and adds unecessarily to your maintenance.

Wet test again if you are still unsure.  Don't be baffled by "gobblety-goop" and pseudo-science.

Enjoy

Tim




Proud Owner of a Beachcomber 578

windsurfdog

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Re: And the winner is! - But what about filtration
« Reply #3 on: July 26, 2004, 09:28:30 am »
TALKCalgary,

Seems to me that you should investigate a few more manufacturers and do a few more wet tests.  From your post, neither Arctic nor Beachcomber seem to satisfy your requirements.  Plus, in agreement with Dr. Spa, I'd be weary of information offered by the BC dealer.  What other dealers are in close proximity to you and have you wet tested their products?  Just food for thought based upon your original post.......good luck.
We, the unwilling, led by the unqualified, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful...

TALKCalgary.com

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Re: And the winner is! - But what about filtration
« Reply #4 on: July 26, 2004, 11:09:11 am »
You could be right. My problem is I want it all. Now, if you could cross the features and innovation of Arctic with the feel of a Beachcomber I would be a happy chap.

I have tested a few other tubs, but narrowed it Beachcomber and Arctic, of which the Beachcomber felt the best, and some say that’s what counts. As far as build quality goes though, for me, Artic is far better.

Temperatures here in Alberta can drop to -30 in the winter, and despite what Beachcomber say, in the event of a prolonged power outage, I feel having pumps outside of the main enclosure is not a good idea. Also, I don’t like the fact that the base of the Beachcomber is not sealed. If you ask me, another problem with all that foam is that it could make a very nice spot for insects etc to make home during the winter.  

Beachcomber say, one of the main reasons they keep the pumps outside of the main unit, is to keep them cool in hot climates.  Need I say more? According to Arctic the main reason Beachcomber introduced the circulation pump was to keep the pump enclosure warm during the winter.

Beachcomber on the other hand say,  Arctics practice of enclosing the pump in the free air space under the tub works fine in winter, but can lead to over heating in the summer. If this is true, could I not simply remove one of the eight access doors during the summer?
« Last Edit: July 26, 2004, 11:10:01 am by TALKCalgary.com »

Steve

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Re: And the winner is! - But what about filtration
« Reply #5 on: July 26, 2004, 11:57:20 am »
Quote
You could be right. My problem is I want it all. Now, if you could cross the features and innovation of Arctic with the feel of a Beachcomber I would be a happy chap.

I have tested a few other tubs, but narrowed it Beachcomber and Arctic, of which the Beachcomber felt the best, and some say that’s what counts. As far as build quality goes though, for me, Artic is far better.

Temperatures here in Alberta can drop to -30 in the winter, and despite what Beachcomber say, in the event of a prolonged power outage, I feel having pumps outside of the main enclosure is not a good idea. Also, I don’t like the fact that the base of the Beachcomber is not sealed. If you ask me, another problem with all that foam is that it could make a very nice spot for insects etc to make home during the winter.  

Beachcomber say, one of the main reasons they keep the pumps outside of the main unit, is to keep them cool in hot climates.  Need I say more? According to Arctic the main reason Beachcomber introduced the circulation pump was to keep the pump enclosure warm during the winter.

Beachcomber on the other hand say,  Arctics practice of enclosing the pump in the free air space under the tub works fine in winter, but can lead to over heating in the summer. If this is true, could I not simply remove one of the eight access doors during the summer?


 Oh my Cowtown friend.... The HE SAID, SHE SAID game is one you don't want to get caught up in.

You seem to be of the impression that Arctic is a better built product? I would go back and look again. I'm not sure what you're basing that on??  ???

As far as cold tempertures, do you know how long Beachcomber has been in business? Do you know that 1 in 3 tubs sold in Canada is a Beachcomber? They've been doing the Protec design for 17 years. It's been done a long time and you aren't the first customer to be sold this design. Obviously your salesmen (both) are shmucks.  :-/

The base of the tub isn't "sealed" eh? Ok... let's look closer. What is your tub sitting on? A concrete pad? Sidewalk blocks? This means that either those critters need to eat through the cement or through the pressure treated kickplate that surrounds the bottom of the tub. If you're concerned about that, why consider a tub with so many access panels into an empty, warm cabinet? Ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

The pump isn't outside to keep them cool in warm climates at ALL. That salesman should be selling shoes or underwear. It's to insulate ALL 4 SIDES of the tub. It will give you an R42 insulation factor. It's more quiet, more energy efficient, has less vibration and gives more interior space within the spa. Tell me that he said this as well to you? ???

According to Arctic? Let them sell their own crap. They have NO CLUE why other companies do what they do. They are just selling AGAINST it. The Hush pump is fantastic and if you skipped over that, go back to your Beachcomber and listen to that tub run. You won't hear it and it draws .6 amps while running. It's also filtering 42,000 gallons of water a day. Pretty amazing wouldn't you say? If what they are saying was seriously true, why would Bechcomber have cooling vents on the front of that step? Another Hmmmmmmmmm.

Here's a good question to take to your Arctic guy. They are trying to tell you that less insulation is better right and the pumps are generating enough heat to keep that cabinet warm in -30 temps right? When do the pumps put off a LOT of heat? When you're in it right? So let's look at this...

If you use that spa 1 hour a day, that will mean that the pumps aren't generating significant heat 23 out of the 24 hours right? It's on a low speed or not on at all. Now what's keeping that cabinet warm in the winter? 3rd Hmmmmmmm. ;D

Comfort and therapy are the key's. Beachcomber is the second largest company in the world and though your Arctic buddy might not understand, 10's of thousands do.

How do I get sucked into these still? It's not like I SELL Beachcomber. ???  ;D

You also mentioned that you got better therapy from less jets and smaller pumps. Welcome to spa design 101. All that means is that you're getting more for less. Doesn't it also make more sense that you will be spending less to operate that tub as well because of less HP? A resounding YES! Say it with me.... YES!! ;D

The bottom line is that you are getting very poor information from both of those morons. Not to mention they'll tell ya anything to get the sale.
Go buy a Beachcomber and be happy. Beachcomber has 6 or 7 thousand tubs in our city (Edmonton) and last year alone we reached -55 with the windchills. They've been here for 21 years selling Beachcomber so do you really think they are that prone to problems? NOPE. Go right now and get it. Why are you still sitting here.... GO. ;)
(High pressure sales.... I love it! ;D )

Steve

Spatech_tuo

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Re: And the winner is! - But what about filtration
« Reply #6 on: July 26, 2004, 01:02:56 pm »
Quote

How do I get sucked into these still? It's not like I SELL Beachcomber. ???  ;D

Steve


"Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in."

Al Pacino, Godfather III
« Last Edit: July 26, 2004, 07:38:45 pm by Spatech_tuo »
220, 221, whatever it takes!

ZzTop

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Re: And the winner is! - But what about filtration
« Reply #7 on: July 26, 2004, 06:30:52 pm »
Heh Steve welcome back!

TALKCalgary.com

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Re: And the winner is! - But what about filtration
« Reply #8 on: July 26, 2004, 10:56:32 pm »
Hello my northern friend!

Thanks for your advice. I would like to clarify a few things.

I am not against Beachcomber. In fact, as I said, in wet tests it came out top of our list, and we will probably order one. But that in part is due to the trust we have the local dealer who has also been very helpful.

Having said that, from a “build” point of view, it is my opinion that the Beachcomber 750 is inferior to the Arctic Tundra for the reasons I will now give.

1.      FLOOR
The Arctic has a solid pedestal floor which is foam coated. This solid base protects the underside from water, dirt and debris, as well as pests such as ants etc… On top of this, Arctic spars come with the option of a heavy duty fibreglass pad that further protects the base of the tub.  By comparison, the Beachcomber 750 has no bottom whatsoever.

2.      CABINET
Arctic Spars offer no maintenance cast aluminium cabinets. By comparison Beachcomber offers the choice of plastic or wood.  Both of which are damaged by sunlight. Yes - the Arctic has access doors in there cabinet. Is this a bad thing?

3.      EXTRAS
Although this will be or first spa purchase, I envisage that I may not want to use it solely for massage. There may well be time when I just want to soak and chill out. To this end little extras like underwater lighting, waterfall features and air bubblers are nice to have. With Beachcomber you get one underwater light and that’s your lot.


4.      COVER
I have read numerous posting on this BBS about the problems Beachcomber have had with their covers. It seams to me that Arctic’s system of producing a solid one piece reinforced cover has advantages over a system which relies on joining two cut foam inserts in a vinyl case.

There is no doubt that Beachcomber builds a good spa. Personally, I found the Beachcomber 750 to be quieter, and provided a better massage than the Arctic. But I do feel Beachcomber could improve on their build quality. For example, putting a floor in their cabinets would be a good start!




Steve

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Re: And the winner is! - But what about filtration
« Reply #9 on: July 26, 2004, 11:40:57 pm »
My opinion for what it's worth... (how many of you stopped reading at this point?  ;D )

1) Floor - Totally redundant and a non issue. The bottom of the perimeter of the tub is sealed with a 2X4 pressure treated base. The foundation will prevent rodents from entering that way. In 8 years, there was 3 instances where we applied a 3/4" pressure treated sheet of plywood on the bottom because of large gaps between a deck floor. I guarantee you that the cost of that was much less than what Arctic is selling this Forever floor for. Sales gimmick that you will never find value in. IMO that is.  ;D

2) Cabinet - The Enviroskirt is a PVC / Fiberglass material that will NEVER fade. It is 100% maintenance free. Nuff said!
                             
3) Extras - This is where 98% of newbies get burnt. I agree that most of these items are intriguing, but after 3 months you'll realize that you bought your tub for comfort, therapy, low maintenance and good dealer service. The rest are fluffy things that confuse issues.

4) I will be the first to say that Beachcomber went through a tough time about a year ago where the skin delaminated underneath on about 20% of the covers. It's been long fixed and again... isn't an issue at this point. I'm not sure what you mean by  "a solid one piece reinforced cover"?  ??? All covers have a split and fold in half.

Beachcomber has never tried the disco ball, flashing lights, waterfall thing. Some do enjoy those things but it makes up about 2% of the purchase. It's like buying a car and wanting the feature of the gas cap cover to fold towards the front instead of the back to open.

And the thing that really is funny in all this...

The [glb]FLAMES[/glb] STILL SUCK!!  ;)

Let us know how it ends up and why. Take care...

Steve

PS
Nice to see you plugging away ZZ. Keep up those great posts. You still hold the record for most views on a single post. Almost 6500 ...WOW :o
« Last Edit: July 26, 2004, 11:46:19 pm by Steve »

zzaphod42

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Re: And the winner is! - But what about filtration
« Reply #10 on: July 27, 2004, 12:04:43 am »
Quote

 Oh my Cowtown friend.... The HE SAID, SHE SAID game is one you don't want to get caught up in.

You seem to be of the impression that Arctic is a better built product? I would go back and look again. I'm not sure what you're basing that on??  ???

As far as cold tempertures, do you know how long Beachcomber has been in business? Do you know that 1 in 3 tubs sold in Canada is a Beachcomber? They've been doing the Protec design for 17 years. It's been done a long time and you aren't the first customer to be sold this design. Obviously your salesmen (both) are shmucks.  :-/

The base of the tub isn't "sealed" eh? Ok... let's look closer. What is your tub sitting on? A concrete pad? Sidewalk blocks? This means that either those critters need to eat through the cement or through the pressure treated kickplate that surrounds the bottom of the tub. If you're concerned about that, why consider a tub with so many access panels into an empty, warm cabinet? Ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

The pump isn't outside to keep them cool in warm climates at ALL. That salesman should be selling shoes or underwear. It's to insulate ALL 4 SIDES of the tub. It will give you an R42 insulation factor. It's more quiet, more energy efficient, has less vibration and gives more interior space within the spa. Tell me that he said this as well to you? ???

According to Arctic? Let them sell their own crap. They have NO CLUE why other companies do what they do. They are just selling AGAINST it. The Hush pump is fantastic and if you skipped over that, go back to your Beachcomber and listen to that tub run. You won't hear it and it draws .6 amps while running. It's also filtering 42,000 gallons of water a day. Pretty amazing wouldn't you say? If what they are saying was seriously true, why would Bechcomber have cooling vents on the front of that step? Another Hmmmmmmmmm.

Here's a good question to take to your Arctic guy. They are trying to tell you that less insulation is better right and the pumps are generating enough heat to keep that cabinet warm in -30 temps right? When do the pumps put off a LOT of heat? When you're in it right? So let's look at this...

If you use that spa 1 hour a day, that will mean that the pumps aren't generating significant heat 23 out of the 24 hours right? It's on a low speed or not on at all. Now what's keeping that cabinet warm in the winter? 3rd Hmmmmmmm. ;D

Comfort and therapy are the key's. Beachcomber is the second largest company in the world and though your Arctic buddy might not understand, 10's of thousands do.

How do I get sucked into these still? It's not like I SELL Beachcomber. ???  ;D

You also mentioned that you got better therapy from less jets and smaller pumps. Welcome to spa design 101. All that means is that you're getting more for less. Doesn't it also make more sense that you will be spending less to operate that tub as well because of less HP? A resounding YES! Say it with me.... YES!! ;D

The bottom line is that you are getting very poor information from both of those morons. Not to mention they'll tell ya anything to get the sale.
Go buy a Beachcomber and be happy. Beachcomber has 6 or 7 thousand tubs in our city (Edmonton) and last year alone we reached -55 with the windchills. They've been here for 21 years selling Beachcomber so do you really think they are that prone to problems? NOPE. Go right now and get it. Why are you still sitting here.... GO. ;)
(High pressure sales.... I love it! ;D )

Steve


Wow!
Will I ever say anything high-pressure like that myself - not a chance in the world; but it sure is fun reading it. Always entertaining (and informative) when you make an appearance Steve.

Joe

IonHeaven

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Re: And the winner is! - But what about filtration
« Reply #11 on: July 27, 2004, 03:05:06 am »
Well, all I can say is I'm sold. Good job Steve! I've been deciding between a 2003 Beachcomber 720x and a Marquis Reward. Unfortuanately the 03 Beachcomber doesn't have a hush pump. $1500 jump in price to get the LE package, not sure about that yet.

Anyway, guess which way I'm leaning now Steve!

IonHeaven

PS  Cement is on the way!

ZzTop

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Re: And the winner is! - But what about filtration
« Reply #12 on: July 30, 2004, 01:46:07 am »
IonHeaven, I still think the LE package is worth it. Much greater long term value.  You won't be sorry.
Regards, Zz
« Last Edit: July 30, 2004, 01:47:09 am by ZzTop »

TALKCalgary.com

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Re: And the winner is! - But what about filtration
« Reply #13 on: July 31, 2004, 02:08:46 am »
What does the "LE Package" consist of?

zzaphod42

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Re: And the winner is! - But what about filtration
« Reply #14 on: July 31, 2004, 10:34:53 am »
Quote
What does the "LE Package" consist of?


Hush Pump - 24 hour whisper quiet filtration.
Reflex Foot Massage (RFM) - Incredible foot massage/whirlpool action
Powerguard Heatshield - Energy efficient/durable 4 - 3" cover
Everlight 3 - Mood lighting guaranteed not to burn out
Protec - Exterior equipment package mounted underneath a safety step
Almost immediate delivery in most cases

Hot Tub Forum

Re: And the winner is! - But what about filtration
« Reply #14 on: July 31, 2004, 10:34:53 am »

 

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