hot tub rookie need help choosing

[ray]

one more question... i'm getting pavers for my backyard... should i just ask the contractor to put pavers where the tub is going to sit?  or have concrete?  considering the price is almost the same...

[DKRanger22]

one more question... i'm getting pavers for my backyard... should i just ask the contractor to put pavers where the tub is going to sit?  or have concrete?  considering the price is almost the same...

You'll get lots of different opinions (surprise, surprise) on what material to use for your pad.  Concrete is probably the most popular choice, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's the best.  I'd take a well-done paver base over a shoddily constructed concrete pad.   Site prep is the most important piece of the equation, ensuring that you've excavated deep enough (6" minimum seems to be the general consensus, but that could differ depending on how solid your soil base is and whether or not frost heave is a major concern for your area... I recall you being in Southern California, so that shouldn't be a concern for you).   If going with a paver base, you'll want at least 3-4" of crushed stone (larger size - i.e. 3/4" limestone rather than pea gravel) as the base material.  You'll want to compact it down as best you can - renting the tamping/compacting machine from Home Depot will be the best tool for the job).   Then come over top of the crushed stone with 2" of a construction grade sand (not play sand).   Again, compact it down and ensure that it is level (using a long 2x4 with a 4 foot level on top would do the job).   Then finish with your paver of choice.    If you go the concrete route, I would just ensure that your contractor uses some type of reinforcement (rebar, mesh or fiberglass), as your tub will probably weigh in at 6,000 lbs + once full.   Some might say that reinforcement isn't necessary, but it doesn't cost much extra to do it, and you want this to last for a number of years, so just do it.  If cost is about the same for either option, then I'd probably lean towards concrete myself.   I'm finding it quite a bit cheaper to do a paver base, so that is my game plan.  There are other options: i.e. "EZ pads, constructing a pad out of treated lumber, etc., - all of which can work.   My opinion is that concrete or pavers would be better.   

I haven't gotten into the electrical yet, but my brother (electrician) and I will be tackling that next weekend, so I'll have a bit more feedback on the cost of materials at that time.  It will largely depend on how long of a run you need to make, as the wire will be the most expensive component (aside for labor if you have a contractor... I'll pay my brother in beer... AFTER the wiring is complete).  If you need to hire a contractor, be prepared that it can be costly (i.e. $1,000), but again, there are lots of variables that play into that.  Without knowing more about your setup, it's hard to provide you with meaningful feedback regarding cost.

[ray]

You'll get lots of different opinions (surprise, surprise) on what material to use for your pad.  Concrete is probably the most popular choice, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's the best.  I'd take a well-done paver base over a shoddily constructed concrete pad.   Site prep is the most important piece of the equation, ensuring that you've excavated deep enough (6" minimum seems to be the general consensus, but that could differ depending on how solid your soil base is and whether or not frost heave is a major concern for your area... I recall you being in Southern California, so that shouldn't be a concern for you).   If going with a paver base, you'll want at least 3-4" of crushed stone (larger size - i.e. 3/4" limestone rather than pea gravel) as the base material.  You'll want to compact it down as best you can - renting the tamping/compacting machine from Home Depot will be the best tool for the job).   Then come over top of the crushed stone with 2" of a construction grade sand (not play sand).   Again, compact it down and ensure that it is level (using a long 2x4 with a 4 foot level on top would do the job).   Then finish with your paver of choice.    If you go the concrete route, I would just ensure that your contractor uses some type of reinforcement (rebar, mesh or fiberglass), as your tub will probably weigh in at 6,000 lbs + once full.   Some might say that reinforcement isn't necessary, but it doesn't cost much extra to do it, and you want this to last for a number of years, so just do it.  If cost is about the same for either option, then I'd probably lean towards concrete myself.   I'm finding it quite a bit cheaper to do a paver base, so that is my game plan.  There are other options: i.e. "EZ pads, constructing a pad out of treated lumber, etc., - all of which can work.   My opinion is that concrete or pavers would be better.   

I haven't gotten into the electrical yet, but my brother (electrician) and I will be tackling that next weekend, so I'll have a bit more feedback on the cost of materials at that time.  It will largely depend on how long of a run you need to make, as the wire will be the most expensive component (aside for labor if you have a contractor... I'll pay my brother in beer... AFTER the wiring is complete).  If you need to hire a contractor, be prepared that it can be costly (i.e. $1,000), but again, there are lots of variables that play into that.  Without knowing more about your setup, it's hard to provide you with meaningful feedback regarding cost.
[/quote]

i actually have an appointment on tuesday for both pad and wiring... i think concrete will cost me about $1100 and probably around the same for wiring... wish i could pay them in beer.   

[beachgrad]

Please find a Bullfrog dealer and take a look.  I had one of the brands you have looked at and it was, shall we say, less than satisfactory.  Granted I probably got it 15 years ago but it started leaking just after the warranty expired and cost a ton to heat.  My Bullfrog is now nine years old and has had one problem.  The circuit board failed a year or so ago.  The tech guy walked me through the troubleshooting and it probably took me 15 minutes to swap it out. 

Whatever you choose, go for any extra pumps and higher powered heat units you can get.  On a big spa you can't have to much pump power, and extra heat capacity will allow you to hold the unit at a lower temperature and warm it up down the road when you aren't using it 17 times a day like you will at first.

Good luck

[ray]

Please find a Bullfrog dealer and take a look.  I had one of the brands you have looked at and it was, shall we say, less than satisfactory.  Granted I probably got it 15 years ago but it started leaking just after the warranty expired and cost a ton to heat.  My Bullfrog is now nine years old and has had one problem.  The circuit board failed a year or so ago.  The tech guy walked me through the troubleshooting and it probably took me 15 minutes to swap it out. 

Whatever you choose, go for any extra pumps and higher powered heat units you can get.  On a big spa you can't have to much pump power, and extra heat capacity will allow you to hold the unit at a lower temperature and warm it up down the road when you aren't using it 17 times a day like you will at first.

Good luck

Thanks!

[Sam]

Congrats on a nice spa!  Please stick around and share your experience with others.  Hell, I love hearing about peoples opinions and experiences and I'm in the industry.  I think it helps me better serve my customers.


tman's bullfrog hangup is so weird.  Most people pretty much agree that they make a great hot tub and they are worth considering in your research.  You are like the only one who trashes them.

[Tman122]

tman's bullfrog hangup is so weird.  Most people pretty much agree that they make a great hot tub and they are worth considering in your research.  You are like the only one who trashes them.

I think Bull Frog makes a fine tub. I just don't like the current sales model. It's full of skewed facts and outright lies.

1. 90% less plumbing (as if this means anything, and 90% less than what tub?)
2. Less Moving Parts (haven't figure which ones out yet in my research, and no one has provided the info to me)
3. No Diverter Valves (lie, changing the name does not make a component do something different)
4. No Manifolds (lie, matter of fact they are closer to your ears than in a regularly designed hot tub with no insulation on them to help the noise generated from water diversion and cavitation)
5. 100% full power on all jet pacs (some kinda magic? Unless there's a pump for each pac and another for the the balance of the jets, not sure what you would do with excess flow if you wanted to turn a pac down? Errrr wait, no diverter valves, variable output pumps?) They make variable output pumps.

These are the ones I am chewing on.

Go ahead, tell me how I don't know nothing bout BF

[Tman122]

I think Bull Frog makes a fine tub.

I'll put it up a few more times to get my post count above STTUO, and Doc

[Tman122]

I think Bull Frog makes a fine tub.

[The Wizard of Spas]

tman's bullfrog hangup is so weird.  Most people pretty much agree that they make a great hot tub and they are worth considering in your research.  You are like the only one who trashes them.

I think Bull Frog makes a fine tub. I just don't like the current sales model. It's full of skewed facts and outright lies.

1. 90% less plumbing (as if this means anything, and 90% less than what tub?)
2. Less Moving Parts (haven't figure which ones out yet in my research, and no one has provided the info to me)
3. No Diverter Valves (lie, changing the name does not make a component do something different)
4. No Manifolds (lie, matter of fact they are closer to your ears than in a regularly designed hot tub with no insulation on them to help the noise generated from water diversion and cavitation)
5. 100% full power on all jet pacs (some kinda magic? Unless there's a pump for each pac and another for the the balance of the jets, not sure what you would do with excess flow if you wanted to turn a pac down? Errrr wait, no diverter valves, variable output pumps?) They make variable output pumps.

These are the ones I am chewing on.

Go ahead, tell me how I don't know nothing bout BF

+1.  But you're gonna really agitate some folks on here, Tman

I think Bullfrog is a great tub and I respect them.  But yes- They seem to employ semantics excessively when presenting their tubs.  But people buy them and are happy so I tip my cap to them and the salespeople who sell them.  I can't hate on them and like I said- BF aint a bad tub.

[Tman122]

+1.  But you're gonna really agitate some folks on here, Tman

Agitate folks? LOL, Everyone here except the newer posters knows I could care less who I agitate.

[Sam]

tman's bullfrog hangup is so weird.  Most people pretty much agree that they make a great hot tub and they are worth considering in your research.  You are like the only one who trashes them.

I think Bull Frog makes a fine tub. I just don't like the current sales model. It's full of skewed facts and outright lies.

1. 90% less plumbing (as if this means anything, and 90% less than what tub?)
2. Less Moving Parts (haven't figure which ones out yet in my research, and no one has provided the info to me)
3. No Diverter Valves (lie, changing the name does not make a component do something different)
4. No Manifolds (lie, matter of fact they are closer to your ears than in a regularly designed hot tub with no insulation on them to help the noise generated from water diversion and cavitation)
5. 100% full power on all jet pacs (some kinda magic? Unless there's a pump for each pac and another for the the balance of the jets, not sure what you would do with excess flow if you wanted to turn a pac down? Errrr wait, no diverter valves, variable output pumps?) They make variable output pumps.

These are the ones I am chewing on.

Go ahead, tell me how I don't know nothing bout BF

1. It says "up to" 90% less plumbing.  It's implied that they are comparing it to a hot tub with similar size and jet count.  There is nothing demonstrably false or misleading about this statement.  There is indeed quite a bit less plumbing in a bullfrog than another similarly specc'd hot tub.  You cannot argue this one.  It's simply truth.

2. Nowhere does their website say less moving parts.  Nor have I seen anyone say that.

3. A diverter valve, as used by ever other hot tub manufacturer is not in any bullfrog.  Diverters are pretty much the same in every hot tub and nothing resembling them is found in a Bullfrog.
You can in fact turn each individual jetpak up or down with the control knob at it's base.  This knob is nothing like what we all know and call a diverter valve in every other hot tub.  It's not.  By your logic, every single jet in most hot tubs is a diverter valve because you can turn them up and down by twisting them.  This is clearly a stretch and you are being quite obtuse on this one.

4. They don't say "no manifolds".  In fact, if you go to their website, you will see multiple mentions of the h2air manifold on the back of their jetpaks.  Go look for yourself.  It is nothing like the traditional manifolds found in every single other hot tub though.  It's actually a pretty ingenious evolution of hot tub plumbing.

5. I'm not even sure where you are getting this one.  I have seen people state that you can have all of the jets operate at once without having to turn a diverter valve to some half position.  I think again you are misrepresenting things and/or playing semantics.

I'm not trying to fight with you or anything, I promise.  You have repeatedly demonstrated your ignorance on this subject though and I feel compelled to speak up.  No offense.  You are generally very helpful and provide good information here.  For some reason when it comes to Bullfrog, you get weird.

[Tman122]

tman's bullfrog hangup is so weird.  Most people pretty much agree that they make a great hot tub and they are worth considering in your research.  You are like the only one who trashes them.

I think Bull Frog makes a fine tub. I just don't like the current sales model. It's full of skewed facts and outright lies.

1. 90% less plumbing (as if this means anything, and 90% less than what tub?)
2. Less Moving Parts (haven't figure which ones out yet in my research, and no one has provided the info to me)
3. No Diverter Valves (lie, changing the name does not make a component do something different)
4. No Manifolds (lie, matter of fact they are closer to your ears than in a regularly designed hot tub with no insulation on them to help the noise generated from water diversion and cavitation)
5. 100% full power on all jet pacs (some kinda magic? Unless there's a pump for each pac and another for the the balance of the jets, not sure what you would do with excess flow if you wanted to turn a pac down? Errrr wait, no diverter valves, variable output pumps?) They make variable output pumps.

These are the ones I am chewing on.

Go ahead, tell me how I don't know nothing bout BF

1. It says "up to" 90% less plumbing.  It's implied that they are comparing it to a hot tub with similar size and jet count.  There is nothing demonstrably false or misleading about this statement.  There is indeed quite a bit less plumbing in a bullfrog than another similarly specc'd hot tub.  You cannot argue this one.  It's simply truth.

2. Nowhere does their website say less moving parts.  Nor have I seen anyone say that.

3. A diverter valve, as used by ever other hot tub manufacturer is not in any bullfrog.  Diverters are pretty much the same in every hot tub and nothing resembling them is found in a Bullfrog.
You can in fact turn each individual jetpak up or down with the control knob at it's base.  This knob is nothing like what we all know and call a diverter valve in every other hot tub.  It's not.  By your logic, every single jet in most hot tubs is a diverter valve because you can turn them up and down by twisting them.  This is clearly a stretch and you are being quite obtuse on this one.

4. They don't say "no manifolds".  In fact, if you go to their website, you will see multiple mentions of the h2air manifold on the back of their jetpaks.  Go look for yourself.  It is nothing like the traditional manifolds found in every single other hot tub though.  It's actually a pretty ingenious evolution of hot tub plumbing.

5. I'm not even sure where you are getting this one.  I have seen people state that you can have all of the jets operate at once without having to turn a diverter valve to some half position.  I think again you are misrepresenting things and/or playing semantics.

I'm not trying to fight with you or anything, I promise.  You have repeatedly demonstrated your ignorance on this subject though and I feel compelled to speak up.  No offense.  You are generally very helpful and provide good information here.  For some reason when it comes to Bullfrog, you get weird.

Everything I listed has been mentioned here by either a BF salesman or customer. Go look for yourself Sam. That's not on me. And I think lots of people here and in the solid world recognize my knowledge as something other than ignorance, as you put it.

[BullFrogSpasMN]

tman's bullfrog hangup is so weird.  Most people pretty much agree that they make a great hot tub and they are worth considering in your research.  You are like the only one who trashes them.

I think Bull Frog makes a fine tub. I just don't like the current sales model. It's full of skewed facts and outright lies.

1. 90% less plumbing (as if this means anything, and 90% less than what tub?)
2. Less Moving Parts (haven't figure which ones out yet in my research, and no one has provided the info to me)
3. No Diverter Valves (lie, changing the name does not make a component do something different)
4. No Manifolds (lie, matter of fact they are closer to your ears than in a regularly designed hot tub with no insulation on them to help the noise generated from water diversion and cavitation)
5. 100% full power on all jet pacs (some kinda magic? Unless there's a pump for each pac and another for the the balance of the jets, not sure what you would do with excess flow if you wanted to turn a pac down? Errrr wait, no diverter valves, variable output pumps?) They make variable output pumps.

These are the ones I am chewing on.

Go ahead, tell me how I don't know nothing bout BF

1. It says "up to" 90% less plumbing.  It's implied that they are comparing it to a hot tub with similar size and jet count.  There is nothing demonstrably false or misleading about this statement.  There is indeed quite a bit less plumbing in a bullfrog than another similarly specc'd hot tub.  You cannot argue this one.  It's simply truth.

2. Nowhere does their website say less moving parts.  Nor have I seen anyone say that.

3. A diverter valve, as used by ever other hot tub manufacturer is not in any bullfrog.  Diverters are pretty much the same in every hot tub and nothing resembling them is found in a Bullfrog.
You can in fact turn each individual jetpak up or down with the control knob at it's base.  This knob is nothing like what we all know and call a diverter valve in every other hot tub.  It's not.  By your logic, every single jet in most hot tubs is a diverter valve because you can turn them up and down by twisting them.  This is clearly a stretch and you are being quite obtuse on this one.

4. They don't say "no manifolds".  In fact, if you go to their website, you will see multiple mentions of the h2air manifold on the back of their jetpaks.  Go look for yourself.  It is nothing like the traditional manifolds found in every single other hot tub though.  It's actually a pretty ingenious evolution of hot tub plumbing.

5. I'm not even sure where you are getting this one.  I have seen people state that you can have all of the jets operate at once without having to turn a diverter valve to some half position.  I think again you are misrepresenting things and/or playing semantics.

I'm not trying to fight with you or anything, I promise.  You have repeatedly demonstrated your ignorance on this subject though and I feel compelled to speak up.  No offense.  You are generally very helpful and provide good information here.  For some reason when it comes to Bullfrog, you get weird.

don't waste your time Sam....all the "dinosaurs" in the industry can't fathom a different way to design/build/sell a Hot Tub other than the way its been done for the last 30 years...I'll take 30% + growth over each of the last 3 years while most dealers are closing stores or hoping they hit a 2% growth on a yearly basis if they are lucky.

[Tman122]

don't waste your time Sam....all the "dinosaurs" in the industry can't fathom a different way to design/build/sell a Hot Tub other than the way its been done for the last 30 years...I'll take 30% + growth over each of the last 3 years while most dealers are closing stores or hoping they hit a 2% growth on a yearly basis if they are lucky.

If you think this is about my understanding of a different design to accomplish the same thing, you guys are far gone. To much koolaid.

I will work on all of them.